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Black Hawk War Message Board :: Old Lead Region Historical Society :: Distaff Discussion :: Pocket(s) Author Topic: Pocket(s) (Read 1,006 times) Robert Braun Moderator member is offline < Aide toi et Dieu t'aidera. > Joined: Mar 2002 Gender: Male Posts: 1,373 Location: Fort Atkinson Pocket(s) « Thread Started on Sept 12, 2005, 12:11pm » Apparently, there is some kind of controversy regarding ladies pockets. Not normally being one who comments on such "delicate subjects," I am hoping to raise the issue as a point of discussion. There is a school of thought-- recently surfaced-- that asserts the female "pocket" went the way of the dodo circa 1790, only to reappear circa 1850. Essentially, this theory demands that pockets were "passe" and something called a reticule took its place. Is there additional information (other than commentary from general fashion histories) that supports this theory? I ask this because I KNOW there are specific references to the pocket's availability and use in the early 1830s in present-day Wisconsin! Your input is invited! Regards, Bob. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged "Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom...crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams Robert Braun Moderator member is offline < Aide toi et Dieu t'aidera. > Joined: Mar 2002 Gender: Male Posts: 1,373 Location: Fort Atkinson Ridicules « Reply #1 on Sept 12, 2005, 12:20pm » Here is an interesting link of ridicules, which according to the data presented for the Regency Period (read "War of 1812"), was indeed how "reticules" was actually spelled/pronounced (?) Towit: http://www.regencygarderobe.com/Monthly%20QA%20Pages/Ridicules.htm It may be interesting to note that "ridicule" or even "reticule" are not found in Webster's 1828 Dictionary. Best, Bob Braun Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged "Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom...crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams mary Moderator member is offline Michigan Territory Mary Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female Posts: 67 Location: Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin Re: Pocket(s) « Reply #2 on Oct 25, 2005, 10:36pm » Hello! I have heard that there has been conversation in the Lincoln New Salem newsletter regarding pockets. This discussion apparently stemmed from an historic clothing program which featured several friends from the OLRHS and elsewhere. I was most dismayed to learn that the concept of woemn's pockets appeared to be dismissed out of hand by New Salem. There are indeed 1830s period references to the pocket, and references worthy of study in this discussion. I would like to restart this dialog. Kind regards, Mary. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mary S. Braun "My husband and sons are between me and the Indians. I am safe so long as they live." ---Mrs. Christiana Dodge mary Moderator member is offline Michigan Territory Mary Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female Posts: 67 Location: Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin Pockets sources. « Reply #3 on Oct 26, 2005, 3:48pm » Friends... here are quotes from Mrs. Juliette Kinzie's wonderful book Wau Bun-- The "Early Day" in the North West. These quotes specifically related to Mrs. Kinzie's wear and use of pockets: 1. The morrow came. Plante and Roy had a bright fire and a nice pot of coffee for us. It was our only breakfast, for, on shaking the bag and turning it inside out, we could make no more of our stock of bread than three crackers, which the rest of the party insisted I should put in my Pocket for my dinner. I was much touched by the kindness of Mr. Kellogg, who drew from his wallet a piece of tongue and a slice of fruit-cake, which he said "he had been saving for the lady since the day before, for he saw how matters were a-going. pp. 131-2. 2. Two little girls, inmates of the lodge, sat gazing at me with evident admiration and astonishment, which were increased when I took my little Prayer-book from my pocket and began to read. They had, undoubtedly, never seen a book before, and I was amused at the care with which they looked away from me, while they questioned their mother about my strange employment and listened to her replies. . p. 136. 3. I had put into my pocket, on leaving home, a roll of scarlet ribbon, in case a stout string should be wanted, and I now drew it forth, and with the knife which hung around my neck I cut off a couple of yards for each of the little girls. They received it with great delight, and their mother, dividing each portion into two, tied a piece to each of the little clubs into which their hair was knotted on the temples. They laughed, and exclaimed "Saum!" as they gazed at each other, and their mother joined in their mirth, although, as I thought, a little unwilling to display her Maternal exultation before a stranger. p. 137. These mentions form a foundation for the use of ladies' pockets in the Michigan Territory 1831-1833. Kind regards, Mary. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mary S. Braun "My husband and sons are between me and the Indians. I am safe so long as they live." ---Mrs. Christiana Dodge mary Moderator member is offline Michigan Territory Mary Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female Posts: 67 Location: Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin Re: Pocket(s) « Reply #4 on Nov 1, 2005, 9:19am » Quote: Hello! I have heard that there has been conversation in the Lincoln New Salem newsletter regarding pockets. This discussion apparently stemmed from an historic clothing program which featured several friends from the OLRHS and elsewhere. I was most dismayed to learn that the concept of woemn's pockets appeared to be dismissed out of hand by New Salem. There are indeed 1830s period references to the pocket, and references worthy of study in this discussion. I would like to restart this dialog. Kind regards, Mary. By way of replying to my own post, I see that the September issue of Lincoln's New Salem Prairie Picayune contains a review of Betsy Urven and Joe Kleffmann's clothing presentation in July. The review is written by Ms. Hope Wright, who I know authored a clothing guidelines book for the park in 2000. Many of us own this book, and it containts may good references, sources, and prints. We are aware of several local histories written by some formidable women pioneers, many of whom I quote in this "Distaff" section. It may be worthy of note that Ms. Hope does not seem to quote many of these women in her 2000 publication. I am very puzzled my Ms. Wright's comments regarding pockets: Quote: One questionable item is detached pockets under the skirts, which were worn in the 1626-1790 period but disappeared with the straight skirt (empire/federal) style (1791-1820), replaced by the handbag or reticule (C. Willett and Phillis Cunnington The History of Underclothes, p. 118), i.e. 40-years-out-of-date for NewSalem. I have not found any indication the detached pocket reappeared until the late 1850s, although it was not widespread even then (p 168), and disappeared again with hoop skirts and bustles. Virtually all the fashion plates of the 1830s show the teens and ladies carrying reticules. It is, however, a practical-but-nothistoric solution for re-enactors to keep site keys, car keys and cash at hand, as long as the pocket is correctlyworn under the skirt. Ms. Wright's concern " I have not found any indication the detached pocket reappeared until the late 1850s" appears solved by several mentions of pockets found in Mrs. Kinzie's Wau Bun. Certainly as an Easterner and a woman of reasonable means, Mrs. Kinzie would have been among those more attuned to recent fashion. She makes no mention of the "reticules" advocated by Ms. Hope. Ms. Hope's comment that pockets are a "practical-but-not historic solution for re-enactors to keep site keys, car keys and cash at hand, as long as the pocket is correctlyworn under the skirt" appears at best ill-informed, given the documentation Betsy and others have collected. Kind regards, Mary. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mary S. Braun "My husband and sons are between me and the Indians. I am safe so long as they live." ---Mrs. Christiana Dodge Robert Braun Moderator member is offline < Aide toi et Dieu t'aidera. > Joined: Mar 2002 Gender: Male Posts: 1,373 Location: Fort Atkinson Re: Pocket(s) « Reply #5 on Nov 9, 2005, 3:13pm » You are much nicer than I am. I found the "practical but not not historic" dig to be particularly infuriating. Bob. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged "Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom...crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams mary Moderator member is offline Michigan Territory Mary Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female Posts: 67 Location: Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin Original Pockets « Reply #6 on Mar 13, 2006, 4:09pm » I am very greatful to Mr. Josef Kleffman for sharing with us photographs and drawings of an original pair of well-work, patched and repaired pockets, dating from around 1837. Perhaps Ms. Wright could be invited to view this material as a supplement to her other learnings. Kindly, Mary. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mary S. Braun "My husband and sons are between me and the Indians. I am safe so long as they live." ---Mrs. Christiana Dodge mary Moderator member is offline Michigan Territory Mary Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female Posts: 67 Location: Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin Re: Pocket(s) « Reply #7 on Jun 9, 2006, 10:50am » I have learned from the April 2006 edition of the New Salem Picayune that Ms. Wright and I share a very important viewpoint. Regarding one of the links on her website, she stated: Quote: Costumer's Manifesto is a site I have found helpful but somewhat confusing to use. Please note that both primary source information and costumes made by reenactors, theater designers, and players are referenced and linked, so make sure you are using primary source information if you are trying to create a period garment. "Make sure you are using primary source information if you are trying to create a period garment." I could not agree more! Kindly, Mary Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mary S. Braun "My husband and sons are between me and the Indians. I am safe so long as they live." ---Mrs. Christiana Dodge Forum Jump--------------------» Home--------------------» Black Hawk War--------------------- Black Hawk War General Discussion- Black Hawk War Articles--------------------» Battles of the Black Hawk War--------------------- Sycamore Creek (Stillman's Run)- Pecatonica (Bloody Pond)- Wisconsin Heights- Bad Axe- Other Battles and Skirmishes--------------------» Winnebago War of 1827--------------------- Winnebego War of 1827 Discussion--------------------» Native American Tribes of the Black Hawk War--------------------- Native American Tribes of the Black Hawk War--------------------» American Armed Forces of the Black Hawk War--------------------- Illinois Militia- Michigan Territory (Wisconsin) Militia- U.S. Regular Army- Forts of the Black Hawk War- Indiana Militia--------------------» Old Lead Region Historical Society--------------------- Old Lead Region Historical Society- Distaff Discussion--------------------» Open Discussion--------------------- Open Discussion

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