Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 18, 2004 9:36:14 GMT -5
Bob wrote -
I rather doubt that the term "redskin" has been used in ordinary discussion on this board. I suspect the reason for this is a blend of the appropriate, the concern for good taste, and the desire to keep the discussions on this BHW Board on an elevated plane.
This being said, if we can use terms like "white" settlers and "white" soldiers on this Board--- which is done periodically and without embarrassment or perceived insult, we should be able to use terms like "red" men or "red" soldiers...
... should we not?
EXACTLY!
That's exactly what I suspected-that the BHW Board members are in fact aware of the pejorative nature of the term REDSKINS and that they are able to use terms like "red" men or "red" soldiers in their discussions about intercultural contact.
Thank you for your thought on this matter, Robert.
Cliff - brave [so sez Gene]
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Oct 18, 2004 11:15:57 GMT -5
I could not resist forwarding this thread on to a few close Indian friends to show them how quickly this message board fell from a respected educational site to the discussion of a human's skin and its perceived status in society.
Some of the responses could not be inserted here because of women and children in the audience, however here are two uncensored responses from whom I will call Indian number 1 and Indian number 2.
Indian #1 ... Attoney-at-law inside the Washington belt-way
Our land was taken from us and our people have almost been forgotten, now this Krainik and others want to take away some of the only recognition we have left. If it were not for sports teams we would probably not occur in the consciousness of the white man.
The names, emblems and logos of sports teams are an everlasting testimony to the once fierce, proud spirit of Nations in America.
Indian # 2 Wildlife Specialist - U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Helena, MT
What foolish advocacy is this honky and political friends going to turn to next? Are they going to take away my Red Man tobacco? ... Spit!!
Larry Koschkee (alias -- wa-zi gu-ch (white shooter)
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Post by Robert Braun on Oct 18, 2004 11:54:00 GMT -5
I could not resist forwarding this thread on to a few close Indian friends to show them how quickly this message board fell from a respected educational site to the discussion of a human's skin and its perceived status in society. Larry Koschkee (alias -- wa-zi go-ch (white shooter) Larry--- my thanks for your comments and observations. This and other threads are located in the "Open Discussion" section--- seperate and distinct from the "respected educational site" you have lauded. Fear not... there is evidence to suggest the non-Open Discussion sections of this discussion board are a fruitful bounty for persons anxious to "skim off the top" of Black Hawk War related educational investigations without necessarily feeling need to do the work themselves. Regards, Bob
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 18, 2004 16:47:45 GMT -5
Bob,
You wrote -
"Fear not... there is evidence to suggest the non-Open Discussion sections of this discussion board are a fruitful bounty for persons anxious to 'skim off the top' of Black Hawk War related educational investigations without necessarily feeling need to do the work themselves."
Do I detect a slight irritation, on your part, towards the folks who used materials that were openly shared on the BHWM Board? Any violation of copyright materials?
I've sent Larry's posting to a few friends and when I hear from them I'll address "White Shooter's" remarks.
Cliff - a narrow minded, brave, honky
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Post by Mike Thorson on Oct 19, 2004 9:40:40 GMT -5
OK Honkies listen up.
This part of the board is for "Open Discussion" so you CAN talk about any subject (while this may even be OK for the Native American section too but anyway....) here without fear of "straying off the subject".
We're all friends here and friends may disagree - and- in the process, we might learn something.
As far as using research that members post here - I advise extreme caution. Some people believe that just because it's on the Internet, they can cut & paste and do whatever they want with it. NOT SO. Always cite the source and then get permission to use it, you'll save yourself lots of headaches and heartache in the long run.
White Honky Cracker Boy
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Post by Robert Braun on Oct 20, 2004 9:42:49 GMT -5
Bob, You wrote - "Fear not... there is evidence to suggest the non-Open Discussion sections of this discussion board are a fruitful bounty for persons anxious to 'skim off the top' of Black Hawk War related educational investigations without necessarily feeling need to do the work themselves."Do I detect a slight irritation, on your part, towards the folks who used materials that were openly shared on the BHWM Board? Any violation of copyright materials? Cliff - a narrow minded, brave, honky Cliff--- On average, the useage of such materials runs perilously close to infringement. In some cases, analysis of sources (when provided) does not match the facts and conclusions presented. Yet they do closely match discussions and facts raised here in these threads. I think it is fair to state that our discussion board is certainly the oldest and most comprehensive board out there on the Black Hawk War. Therefore, it is not too far a stretch to connect the dots, since there has been precious little NEW information and certainly np informed discussion or debate on the topic since the mid-1980s. I already have contact most persons whom I believe HAVE crossed the infringement line. We'll keep searching.... For the rest of the world-- fair and accurate citiation is the ONLY acceptable practice! Regards, Bob.
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 20, 2004 11:58:58 GMT -5
Well stated, Robert. I agree with you completely.
Cliff
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Oct 25, 2004 8:34:22 GMT -5
In the NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES OF THE BLACK HAWK WAR - topic - Hypocrisy in Honoring Native People on October 21, 2004, 9:55 pm Cliff wrote the following:
"Thanks for your glib reply, Larry. Your rustic sillyness makes my day. WOMENFOLK? - WOMENFOLK? - OH-PUH-LEEZE!"
When one takes Cliff's response and the amount of e-mails I have received supporting Indians #1 and #2 comments and my position on sparing the women and children, it appears that RUSTIC SILLYNESS can be a antidote for condescension and political/social correctness.
In addition, I would have to agree with some of the e-mail comments regarding Cliff's Joan Rivers impersonation of OH-PUH-LEEZE!... it is amusing.
Larry - a Wa-zi Gu-ch, rustic, silly Tarzan
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Post by Mike Thorson on Oct 25, 2004 9:23:45 GMT -5
Gentlemen: Other than the discussions regarding the inappropriateness of the name REDSKINS, has anyone on the BHWMB actually used the term in referring to Native Americans? Cliff Krainik No i never have. Nor would I oppose teams dropping names that refer to Native Americans, if that is their choice. One should ask though, wouldn't it be better for organizations to come to this decision on their own, without being coerced? No person, or organization, likes to be called a racist, or insensitive. As expected, people and organizations react defensively to some group "getting in their face" about something. They are going about it the wrong way, if you ask me. Is the idea to cosmetically change something so it's politically correct, while not changing the hearts or thinking of anyone at the same time?
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 25, 2004 12:45:21 GMT -5
In a perfect world ... Mike - you wrote "One should ask though, wouldn't it be better for organizations to come to this decision on their own, without being coerced? No person, or organization, likes to be called a racist, or insensitive. As expected, people and organizations react defensively to some group "getting in their face" about something. They are going about it the wrong way, if you ask me. Is the idea to cosmetically change something so it's politically correct, while not changing the hearts or thinking of anyone at the same time?" images.andale.com/f2/116/104/7566189/1099644552896_MASCOT.jpg [/img] Thank you for your voice of moderation, Mike.
I think it would have been so kind of the Woolworth Corporation in Greensboro, North Carolina to decide for themselves one fine day in 1960 to start serving African American students at their lunch counters. And "Wouldn´t It Be Lovely " if Ole Miss began admitting minority students back in 1962 of their own volition.
I agree that no one likes to be called a racist or socially insensitive to others race, religion, or sex Fine - change the image - don't hate the mirror.
By the way, Mike - I have listed by name the organizations who endorse the Retirement of "Indian" Sports Team Tokens - namely
Advocates for American Indian Children (California) The Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians American Counseling Association American Indian Language and Culture Education Board American Indian Mental Health Association (Minnesota) American Indian Movement American Indian Opportunities Industrialization Center of San Bernardino County American Indian Student Services at the Ohio State University American Jewish Committee Asian American Journalists Association Associated Students Council of San Diego State University Association on American Indian Affairs BRIDGES - Building Roads Into Diverse Groups Empowering Students Buncombe County Native American Intertribal Association (North Carolina) Calvert Investment Group Center for the Study of Sports in Society Cincinnati Zapitista Coalition COLOR - Community One Love One Race Committee to End Cultural Genocide (St. Cloud State University) Concerned American Indian Parents (Minnesota) Council for Indigenous North Americans (University of Southern Maine) Eagle and Condor Indigenous Peoples' Alliance Governor's Interstate Indian Council Fontana Native American Indian Center, Inc. Georgia House of Representatives Greater Tulsa Area Indian Affairs Commission Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council HONOR - Honor Our Neighbors Origins and Rights Hutchinson Human Relations Commission Illinois State University Student Government Association Inter-Ethnic Children's Council (Los Angeles) Inter-Faith Council on Corporate Responsibility (ICCR) Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes (Composed of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Muskogee (Creek), Cherokee, and Seminole Nations) Juaneño Band of Mission Indians Kansas Association for Native American Education Latino Children's Action Council (Los Angeles) Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs Mascot Abuse San Francisco Bay Area Medicine Wheel Intertribal Association (Louisiana) Menominee Tribe of Indians (Wisconsin) Michigan Civil Rights Commission State of Michigan, State Board of Education Minnesota Indian Education Association Minnesota State Colleges and Universities Board Minnesota State Board of Education Modern Language Association Morning Star Institute NAACP National Association of Black Journalists National Association of Hispanic Journalists National Coalition on Racism in Sports and the Media National Conference of Christians and Jews National Conference for Community and Justice National Congress of American Indians National Education Association National Indian Education Association Native American Caucus of the California Democratic Party Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio Native American Journalists Association Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs New Hampshire State Board of Education New York State Education Department North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs North Dakota Indian Education Association North Dakota State University Student Senate Ohio Center for Native American Affairs Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. Progressive Resource/Action Cooperative Rainbow Coalition San Bernardino/Riverside Counties Native American Community Council Students Making All Races Tolerant (SMART) Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americas Southern California Indian Center Southern Christian Leadership Conference St. Cloud State University - American Indian Center Tennessee Chapter of the National Coalition for the Preservation of Indigenous Cultures Tennessee Native Veterans Society Unified Coalition for American Indian Concerns, Virginia Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations United Church of Christ The United Indian Nations of Oklahoma United Methodist Church United States Commission on Civil Rights Virginia American Indian Cultural Resource Center Western North Carolina Citizens for an End to Institutionalized Bigotry Wisconsin Indian Education Association WIEA "Indian" Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin) Wisconsin State Human Relations Association Youth "Indian" Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin)
Mr. Koschee has posted the quotations - POSTINGS - from two unnamed third parties who support the continuance of TEAM TOKENS.
I believe the rule is " Please be sure to sign your full, real name to your posts. It is one of our very few Board rules."
Clarification please.
Thanks,
Cliff Krainik
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Post by Mike Thorson on Oct 25, 2004 13:40:28 GMT -5
Thank you for your voice of moderation, Mike.
I think it would have been so kind of the Woolworth Corporation in Greensboro, North Carolina to decide for themselves one fine day in 1960 to start serving African American students at their lunch counters. And "Wouldn´t It Be Lovely " if Ole Miss began admitting minority students back in 1962 of their own volition.
I agree that no one likes to be called a racist or socially insensitive to others race, religion, or sex Fine - change the image - don't hate the mirror.
Thanks Cliff. I don't agree with your analogy. We are not talking about denying Civil Rights to a certain group of American citizens. I don't think the comparison comes anywhere close and for advocates to use this analogy I think further hurts their cause, because it diminishes real abuses of civil rights. I don't like the use of Native American mascots either becasue it's a faux mockery of their culture. However, I resent, as I think others do, the hyperbole and ill;-advised comparisons used by those who want to get rid of using Native American mascots. Regarding your last statement I submit this - just because someone hurls an epithet at me, it doesn't make it true. Again, calling someone 'racist' because they wear a Washington Redskins sweatshirt does not necessarily mean that person is a racist. You say "change the image - don't hate the mirror" which does not work here. If the afroementioned example is forced to take of his Redskins sweatshirt he offends less people and he appears to not be racist - but IS he?
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 25, 2004 13:57:14 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and concerns, Mike.
At this point we agree to disagree.
On October 18th, 2004, 12:15pm
Mr. Koschee posted two quotes - TWO POSTINGS - from unnamed, NON BOARD MEMBERS who support the continuance of TEAM TOKENS.
I believe the rule is " Please be sure to sign your full, real name to your posts. It is one of our very few Board rules."
Clarification please.
Thanks,
Cliff Krainik
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Oct 25, 2004 17:30:26 GMT -5
Mike wrote ...
"I don't agree with your analogy. We are not talking about denying Civil Rights to a certain group of American citizens. I don't think the comparison comes anywhere close and for advocates to use this analogy I think further hurts their cause, because it diminishes real abuses of civil rights."
Think again - you might be mistaken.
I showed your comments to a Civil Rights attorney here in Washington and he replied -
"The United States Commission on Civil Rights is preparing to address this long-standing national issue. According to recently published news accounts the Commission is currently investigating the possibility that the institutionalized use of "Indian" sports team tokens may violate Title II and/or Title IV Civil Rights Laws of 1964."
Cliff Krainik
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Post by Robert Braun on Oct 26, 2004 8:53:47 GMT -5
As has been periodically reported in the media, the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights is hardly an inpartial body. If the Commission seriously thought they had a case regarding the use of Indian games, they would have exercised their prosecutorial rights YEARS ago. What has stayed their hand? I wonder how much money the Commission would spend litigating on such a case? How much time and effort to do so? And, at the end of the day, they will have accomplished (probably) the removal of an Indian team mascot name and left years of anger, railing at judicial activism rather that the "will of the people" etc. etc. in its wake. They will have won an academic point--- having invested neither a nickel or a paragraph in elucidating the facinating history of native people and their cultures, their stories, they daily life, their struggles and their triumphs. They will have not built a context for understanding and tolerance; they will have not facilitated a change in both heart and mind. The angst that will remain in the wake of such a Phyrric Victory is evident in the cases of change throughout the land-- at Marquette University, at Milton (Wisconsin) High School (where a nasty legal battle changed the team mascot name) and my old alma mater Onteora Central High School in upstate NY-- where the Board changed the name from Onteora "Indians" (after a tribe or leader that allegedly inhabited the Catskills) to something else in 2000. In a bitter recall election, two members lost their seats, and a new Board eventually convened-- elected on the platform that they would change the name back to Onteora "Indians." I am informed that they did, which reportedly set a national precident. (Of course, the "spin" NOW is that it was the Board's move to restore the name, rather than the former Board of Education's move to initially remove it, which has split the community! ) Decisions are best when they are first decided internally. My old alma mater failed to pursuade the internal order first-- the student, faculty, community and alumni that for these good reasons, perhaps a change in mascot might be a positive. Instead, figuring that the Board would never win a popular "vote," they did what many do when they wish to avoid a popular "vote"-- they rammed the change through by judicial (or in this case "executive") fiat. Is the community better for it? Is there now a heartfelt understand and tolerance for Indian viewpoints? Is there celebration and embrace for native culture and tradition? No. But hey! At least we can be happy that we did the right thing.... ...right? Bob.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Oct 26, 2004 10:41:10 GMT -5
Mike wrote ... "I don't agree with your analogy. We are not talking about denying Civil Rights to a certain group of American citizens. I don't think the comparison comes anywhere close and for advocates to use this analogy I think further hurts their cause, because it diminishes real abuses of civil rights." Think again - you might be mistaken.
I showed your comments to a Civil Rights attorney here in Washington and he replied -
"The United States Commission on Civil Rights is preparing to address this long-standing national issue. According to recently published news accounts the Commission is currently investigating the possibility that the institutionalized use of "Indian" sports team tokens may violate Title II and/or Title IV Civil Rights Laws of 1964."
Cliff Krainik Sorry, but there is no equal - in any way - to Native American references being used in sports teams to things such as the denial of voting or other civil rights. Making this gigantic leap cheapens real violations of civil rights and opens up a Pandora's Box of litigation. Once again I see that if advocates don't get their way through hysterical hyperbole they will try to force it by means of litigation. I agree wholeheartedly with Bob's last comment - what a waste of time and resources, both desperately needed in the Native American community, on a superficial salve for American politically correct white liberals which would ultimately result in not a single changed mind - only a more resentful one.
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