Cliff Krainik
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MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Dec 17, 2002 18:02:38 GMT -5
"FUGITIVE" Michigan Territory Militia Muster Rolls
Today, Michele and I paid a visit to the National Archives to examine the Black Hawk War-era muster rolls for the Michigan Territory Militia. We were informed that all military muster rolls were to be found in Records Group 94 not 92.
Here is a copy of an email we received concerning our afternoon foray -
Dear Mr. Krainik,
I am very sorry I missed you this afternoon. It took far longer than I anticipated due to our renovation and the subsequent shift of records locations. I was forced to summon one of our senior archivists to assist me as I could not locate the records. We finally found the Black Hawk War era muster rolls but were unable to locate any muster rolls for Michigan Militia. Again my apologies for the delay.
Sincerely, Michael F. Knight NARA
QUESTION - Before we return to do further digging, does anyone have any positive information that the muster rolls do, in fact, exist, and if so, where were they sighted? Does anyone have specific record group numbers? or specific locations?
Thanks.
Cliff
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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 17, 2002 19:29:07 GMT -5
Cliff, I was informed more than a year ago that a fellow who is a librarian with the Wisconsin Historical Society hand-copied them more than 20 years ago. He mentioned he found all the companies, with the exception of Dodge's headquarters group (whatever that is.)
He would not share more information than that.
I suspect that the archivist is looking for Michigan STATE, and not territory. I recommend looking in terriotorial papers.... as the rolls may well be be there.
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Cliff Krainik
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MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Dec 17, 2002 21:22:36 GMT -5
Territory - not state.
Hi Bob,
Having our researcher look under Territory, not state, is a given. Evidently the muster rolls are not arranged by geographic locations, rather by time periods, ie. Mexican War, Civil War, etc.
I still need more to go on if I'm going to get these fellas pointed in the right direction.
Cliff
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Post by Marge Smith on Dec 17, 2002 23:17:25 GMT -5
I think they are with the Winnebago War Muster Rolls. I was given the lead mine muster rolls in 1986 by James Hanson of the Wisconsin Historical Society Library. On the first page of his transcription is written"RG 94 Start 8W3 Row 14 Compartment 28 Shelf F".
When I went to NARA I asked for the rolls so I could proof back to the originals plus get the muster roll for Captain Thomas McNairs Company of Michigan Militia which Mr. Hanson had not given me.
The NARA did not know what these muster rolls were at that time.
At one time the muster rolls had to exist for the Federal Government to pay the Michigan Volunteers. I am fuzzy on whether they got pensions or not. If so, they had to prove service and the Pension Office would have gone to the Muster Rolls.
There is a microfilm of a card file of all the men who fought in the "Old Wars" which would include the Black Hawk War. If any of the Michigan Volunteers are included on this film, the only source would have to be the muster rolls.
Cliff, thank you for helping. The last phone number I had was 866-272-6271. I sent my e-mail to inquire@NARA.gov with reference to the Old Military Reference. Marge
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Cliff Krainik
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MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Dec 17, 2002 23:40:25 GMT -5
Thank you for the information, Marge.
I'll ask Mr. Knight at the National Archives to look at the Winnebago War Records to see if the BHW Michigan Terr. Muster Rolls are included.
The curent phone number for the NARA - Military Records is 202 501 5385 Ext. 227
Cliff
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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 18, 2002 9:04:29 GMT -5
Territory - not state. Having our researcher look under Territory, not state, is a given. I agree, Cliff. My comments were based on past experiences with NARA staff. When I did research there in the late 1970s and early 80's the folks I dealt with weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer--despite spoon-feeding them the data. Hopefully things are much better now. I would like to extend my profound thanks to Cliff, Michele, and Marge for grabbing this elusive research "bull by the horns." The lack of competent accounting of the companies for the Michigan Territory is a huge hole in our understanding of the militia participants from that region. Good luck in your search! Bob.
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Cliff Krainik
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MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Dec 18, 2002 9:11:44 GMT -5
Thanks, Bob. I'll keep you posted on the progress of our research.
Cliff
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Dec 19, 2002 17:22:40 GMT -5
Oh Boy!... our tax dollars at work. We can put men on the moon but we can not locate written history. No surprises here that Cliff and Marge are experiencing research problem. Likewise, I experienced problems at the NARA in 1986-1987.
If the original information is not found or can not be accurately transcribed one can follow the lead of Mr. Virgil D. White. I believe Marge mentioned this file in her last post. There is a name card file on microfilm at the NARA, Series M629. Mr. White used this to develope his two volume book Index to Volunteer Soldiers in Indian Wars and Disturbances 1815 - 1858 , 1994, The National Historical Publishing Col. Waynesboro, TN, Vol I and II.
It has been very useful in locating the Michigan Territory Volunteers the last two years.
I think one could reconstruct a respectable facsimile roll call with a little investment of time. However, transcripts from the original documents would be more meaningful.
Larry K
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Dec 19, 2002 18:07:54 GMT -5
He said - She said - He said
Cliff's email to Michael Knight, NARA Research Assistant on 12/17/2002 11:29:33 PM Eastern Standard Time ---------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Knight:
The following information was sent to me this evening - [Marge Smith's posting of Dec 17th, 2002, 11:17pm on the Black Hawk War Message Board] "I think they [Michigan Territory Militia Muster Rolls] are with the Winnebago War Muster Rolls. I was given the lead mine muster rolls in 1986 by James Hanson of the Wisconsin Historical Society Library. On the first page of his transcription is written"RG 94 Start 8W3 Row 14 Compartment 28 Shelf F".
When I went to NARA I asked for the rolls so I could proof back to the originals plus get the muster roll for Captain Thomas McNairs Company of Michigan Militia which Mr. Hanson had not given me.
The NARA did not know what these muster rolls were at that time.
At one time the muster rolls had to exist for the Federal Government to pay the Michigan Volunteers. I am fuzzy on whether they got pensions or not. If so, they had to prove service and the Pension Office would have gone to the Muster Rolls.
There is a microfilm of a card file of all the men who fought in the "Old Wars" which would include the Black Hawk War. If any of the Michigan Volunteers are included on this film, the only source would have to be the muster rolls."
Does this give you anything further to go on? Please let me know. Thank you.
Cliff Krainik
=============================== Michael Knigh's email to Cliff on 12/19/2002 3:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
"Hello Mr. Krainik,
I was off yesterday and was assigned to my project work at Archives 2, College Park, today, and thus the tardiness in my reply.
The reference cited in your email, 8W3 14/28/5 is our location. In fact, that is where we examined the boxes of materials related specifically to the BlackHawk War (according to the box label). Naturally, we did not look at anything related to the Winnebago War. I will check on this tomorrow morning. I am not sure what microfilm is being referred to here. There is a a microfilm publication, M1505, Compiled Service Records of Michigan and Illinois Volunteers Who Served During the Winnebago Indian Disturbances, 1827 (3 rolls).
However, we also have pension record indexes on microfilm which may be of assistance.
Thanks.
Michael F. Knight NARA"
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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 31, 2002 11:56:44 GMT -5
I concur with Mr. Knight in consulting the "Paymaster General" records for clues. These records were still around in 1881 when accessed by the Adjutant General under orders from then-Secretary of War Robert Lincoln, to refute an allegation of pay irregularities concerning Gen. Dodge and the companies of Clark and Gentry. Hope all is well! Warm regards... Bob.
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Post by Marge Smith on Jan 2, 2003 16:56:08 GMT -5
I received a reply from the National Archives.
"Our records indicate that Col. Henry Dodge served as Colonel of Dodge's Iowa Militia. Muster rolls for that period, if they exist, are very fragile and cannot be used. If you are looking for the service records of a specific individual, we suggest you use the enclosed Order for Military Service Records to request a search of the compiled military service records in our custody. We shall search the carded records in our custody and provide you with copies."
Sincerely, Brenda Beasley Kepley Old Military and Civil Records Textual Archives Services Division.
Reply to: 2301782-BK
Cliff Krainik Question - Do you think we could get a microfilm copy of the muster rolls.
If they don't whether they exist how could they determine they are too fragile to be used.
Marge
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Jan 2, 2003 22:29:26 GMT -5
WINNEBAGO WAR RECORDS HEADING FOR CONSERVATION. "FUGITIVE" Michigan Territory Militia Muster Rolls included? - perhaps.
Dear BHW Message Board Readers,
Well, we have some GOOD news and some BAD news re. the Michigan Territory Muster Rolls for the BHW.
The following is a self explanatory exchange between Cliff and Michael Knight, Archives Specialist at the National Archives (NARA) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subj: Winnebago War Date: 12/30/2002 11:02:08 AM Eastern Standard Time From: michael.knight@nara.gov (Michael Knight) To: Krainik@aol.com CC: richard.peuser@nara.gov (Richard Peuser) Dear Mr. Krainik,
I have just returned from holiday vacation and I received your telephone message. Unfortunately, the Winnebago Muster Rolls are in such poor condition that they have been closed for viewing by researchers. The records have deteriorated so badly that they would have to go to our conservation lab for treatment before we open them flat to examine them for individual and territorial military units. Generally, conservation treatments in our labs are backlogged by about 6 to 12 months. After treatment, these records could be microfilmed for you at a cost of $.70 per page.
Please feel free to contact me if you have other questions or would like to pursue microfilming of these records for you.
Thanks again for your inquiry.
Michael F. Knight Archives Specialist, NARA ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Knight:
Thank you for informing me of the current condition of the Winnebago War era military papers held by the National Archives. I would like to have the papers properly preserved and copied on microfilm.
Can you estimate the number of pages involved and tell me how we can schedule the conservation and copy work? Also, please let me know if their is a conservation request form to file and an activation fee.
I wish you a very Happy New Year.
Sincerely, Cliff Krainik - Warrenton, Virginia
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Mr. Krainik,
Until conservation treats these documents it will be impossible to tell how many pages correspond to your interest. There is no fee involved in conservation. These records are in the legal custody of the National Archives and Records Administration and as such Uncle Sam foots the bill for conservation work. We will contact the conservation lab this week and try and schedule these records into their que. However, this may be difficult as many staff members are still out for the holidays. You will only be charged for any microfilm copies made for you. I will keep you apprised of our progress.
Thank you for your request.
Michael F. Knight, Archives Specialist ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Knight:
Thank you for your immediate response and for considering my request for conservation of the Winnebago War records.
Please do let me know when scheduling for conservation of the documents occurs. When the papers are ready for viewing I will order the needed microfilm copies.
I appreciate your efforts.
Sincerely, Cliff Krainik ------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there you have it. The Winnebago War Records are too fragile to view until stabilized. In all probability, the conservation will not take place until 6 to 12 months after they are placed in the que. I've requested that the WW Records be referred to the conservation lab and on this front we will just have to wait until the "mystery box" is opened.
In the meantime I will peruse the "Paymaster General" records for the Michigan Militia Muster Rolls.
Happy New Year to all!
Cliff
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Jan 3, 2003 10:06:19 GMT -5
This board member expresses many thanks to Cliff for pushing the NARA off dead center on this issue.
If the Michigan Militia information is not found in the Winnebago War archival records at least one is able to put together some meaningful material on the "Winnebago Fuss" of 1827.
I do have a suggestion for future consideration though... We have a verifiable known source of a transcription of the muster rolls right in our Wisconsin back yard... Mr. Jim Hansen, Reference Specialist at the Wisconsin State Historical Society. It is also known that Mr. Hansen intends to publish his work at some point in time.
I suggest that a reputable organization, such as the Old Lead Region Society, petition Mr. Hansen to publish sooner rather than later. I am sure you have noticed, as well as I, that there are some very persuasive talent in that organization. I realize this could be a very delicate undertaking in convincing Mr. Hansen, for various reasons, but not impossible.
At any rate it maybe worthwhile to develope some strategy to approach Mr. Hansen, but I must caution, at the end of the day, Mr. Hansen must not perceive the efforts as a threat to his ability to publish and be recognized as a significant contributor to the rich history of Wisconsin.
Larry K.
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Post by Robert Braun on Jan 3, 2003 12:13:30 GMT -5
I echo Larry's congratulations to Cliff and Michelle... their work in identifying and preserving the history of this period is significant and on-going. On behalf of generations of Wisconsin history addicts...
THANK YOU, one and all!
As to Larry's proposal, I am quite willing to approach the president of the OLRHS with the idea, and see that it is an agenda item for the next quarterly meeting in February.
Again... my thanks to Cliff, Michelle, and Larry for all your efforts to further understanding of this turbulent time in history. Thanks, too, to Marge Smith for her contributions towards this search.
Bob Braun.
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Cliff Krainik
Member
MY HEROES HAVE ALWAYS LIFTED THE TOPKNOTS OF THE LONG KNIVES
Posts: 233
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Post by Cliff Krainik on Feb 6, 2003 19:10:31 GMT -5
More on the "FUGITIVE" Michigan Territory Militia Muster Rolls - BAD NEWS
Subj: Michigan Militia Date: 01/22/2003 11:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time From: michael.knight@nara.gov (Michael Knight) To: Krainik@aol.com
Mr. Krainik,
I have just received word from our conservation lab that they have concluded an extensive examination of the Winnebago and Black Hawk War muster rolls but were unable to locate any muster rolls related to Michigan territory militias. One of our senior archivists has located an index list of some of the militia regiments that should have been in the boxes covering these conflicts but they appear to be missing.
The conservation lab has rejected our requests to examine and treat the body of records at this time due to their poor condition as well as the volume of records involved. They simply do not have the resources to commit to this project at this time. Therefore, the status of the muster rolls remains the same-closed to the public until such time as the lab can devote full resources to their conservation. We will continue our search to find the missing muster rolls and alert you if they are located.
Sincerely,
Michael F. Knight NARA
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