How long did the skirmish last?

[Robert Braun]

I have just finished reading one modern account of the "Battle of Bloody Pond," which seemed to indicate that the action lasted for something like half and hour.

Can't be.

I suggest that the action lasted no more than five minutes. Probably closer to two to three minutes.

Once Dodge had positioned his lookouts and horseholders, the fate of the Kickapoo war-party was sealed.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

 It is extremely difficult to extrapolate the time it would have taken to annihilate the Kickapoos however if I was to venture a guess, I would come down on the time frame of the "modern account".

  Even though it was about a 2 to 1 advantage for Dodge and his mounted Dragoons by subtracting the horseholders and look outs the odds were reduced.  Bear in mind, the Kickapoos' were not lined up in a firing squad formation because they inflicted damage by return fire or hand to hand combat resulting in three casualties and perhaps untold wounded.

LWK

[Greg Carter]

It would strike me that the modern account is a bit lengthy too. Despite Dodge's men having some training or at least a head's-up on the location of the warriors, the first volley of the Kickapoo did bring down 3 of his men, evening the odds just a bit. In the dense terrain (from reading accounts) it doesn't seem as if Dodge's men had any clear advantage in volley fire when shooting at an enemy they could not clearly see. Weapon malfunctions were clearly another problem in the shooting situation, as Dodge himself found out with his rifle. The other piece of relevenant information to consider is knowledge of the Indians. I am certain that Dodge, knowing the ferocity of the Indians particularly in hand-to-hand combat, would not have dragged out the engagement for a half an hour because time would have been on the side of the Kickapoo. After visiting the location of the fight myself, it also seems that if the fight had indeed progressed for 30 minutes it would have ranged further than it did.
GMC

[Robert Braun]

Larry, our sources disagree in two areas... the length of time of the engagement (by extrapolation), and the numbers of the combatants involved.

Firts, a note on the numbers.

I have stated often that several modern writers have never given the numbers issue at Bloody Pond a comprehensive look. It appears, based on the tone and inclination of their prose, that  they preferring to select those accouts that give them the numbers they want: numbers that favor the Kickapoo, by giving the milita 2:1 superiority. Of course, this causes modern readers unaquainted with the facts to naturally conclude: "Well, of course the white guys won... they had more men!" My research indicates a conclusion different that the 2:1 suggested by Dr. Eby and others. More on this later.

As for the lenghth of time of the engagement, I note that the Kickapoo only got off one volley. Dodge and his men quickly charged before they could reload. If the engagement continued for the "half hour" asserted by some modern writers, we would expect the accounts to reflect a greater number of volleys... similar to say Wisconsin Heights. The accounts do not reflect this kind of prolonged exchange at all.

The initial Kickapoo volley wounded three men, as you, Larry, have correctly stated, resulting in 17 year old Peter Parkinson, Jr. having a lock of his hair shot off by a ball. Samuel Black was hit in the head over an ear by a glancing shot, causing a severe skull fracture. Thomas Jenkins shot through the hip, and Montaville Morris fell mortally wounded.

The reason for so few casualties is that Dodge advanced in open order, and only the left half of his skirmish line contacted the Kickapoo initially. The rest had to rush to their left to join the engagement. Interestingly, the above report suggests that the Kickapoo generally fired high (a natural inclination, given their location at the pond embankment) and the majority missed--at a range of 20 to 30 feet.

A few modern writers give the impression that the casualties on both sides happened sequentially...or one after another... and thus accounting for a longer engagement.  In reality, the original accounts agree that the fight was a melee...hand-to-hand, and numerous individual stuggles occured simultaneously. During this melee, the fourth militia casualty, Samuel Wells, fell wounded.

Finally, the most compelling account that provides an indication of the timing of the event is provided by the recollections of volunteer John Messersmith. He  wrote:

“When I charged up the slough, I fired my yaeger [probably a Pattern of 1817 Common Rifle]; let it drop— drew out my left pistol; fired it at an Indian— let the pistol fall— drew out my right pistol; fired it at another Indian— was pouring powder into my hand to reload, when one of our company said, 'They are all dead.’”

Unlike other modern investigators, I simulated Messersmith's activites with weapons of similar weight and size, and timed the sequence of occurances as he described them. I have presumed that his rifle and two pistols were already loaded, and that the priming was renewed, according to Bracken's account.

Numerous timings (n = 10) resulted in a range of 12 - 29 seconds, with a mean of 22 seconds. If we consider the time necessary for Messersmith to move from his place on line, through tangles underbrush, to the melee site, (which I simulated and timed at the ground near the battle site) and perform his stated sequence of events (while all this time, the series of bloody individual encounters are simultaneously occuring) I extrapolate the time to be 2-3 minutes. No more than five minutes, which to me seems overly generous.

These are my reasonings to support my contention for a short time-frame at Bloody Pond.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

You are making an excellent case, however I am not ready to concede to the 2 - 5 minutes you suggest without some answers to the following questions.

Did all the Kickapoo fire their weapons in the first volley, therefore necessitating a simultaneous reload?

Indians were notorious for not discharging their weapons all at once to allow for the ability of some to reload under fire cover.

Did all the Kickapoo have just one firearm?

Maybe some of the warriors carried more than one firearm, which was not uncommon.

Are we certain what group Messersmith was in during the conflict?  Was he positioned in the "left half of the skirmish line, which made initial contact or was he part of the group that "had to rush to their left to join the engagement?

What distance did Messersmith have to charge?

Was Messersmith still charging while discharging the three weapons?

This Messersmith was some "cool customer" or perhaps not if no one can corroborate his account.

Larry

[Greg Carter]

One other point in defense of the short time estimate for the fight is that in most of the recorded battles with Indians throughout American history, not many record that the fighting was drawn out and orthodox. Most accounts refer to the bloody, desperate rushes and hand-to-hand sequences- Bushy Run, Horseshoe Bend, Little Big Horn (not exactly qualified, but still an example), Stillman's Run (estimated, not known) and so on.
GMC

[Robert Braun]

OK, Larry... let's look at the accounts and other facts, and see if they might convince you.

Did all the Kickapoo fire their weapons in the first volley, therefore necessitating a simultaneous reload? The short answer appears to be yes. I say this because Dodge mentions the "general discharge" of the enemy in his after-action report; at least four volunteers were hit and three fell wounded at one time as a result of this discharge; and finally Dodge's reaction to charge right away...something he probably wouldn;t have attempted if he felt the Kickapoo were reserving their fire for another "volley." Numerous volunteers recall these actions in their later writings.
 
Did all the Kickapoo have just one firearm? The short answer here, again, appears to be yes. U. S. Indian Agent Street at PDC wrote in some BHW correspondence that Indians generally preferred trade guns, the U. S. Musket being reportedly too heavy. This plus the fact that veteran H. A. Townsend reported that one Indian was using the rifle once owned by the murdered Apfel at Bloody Pond-- makes me think the war party carried just one firearm each. This is NOT to say they did not carry other weapons--spears, knives, and probably tommahawks---which they did.
 
Are we certain what group Messersmith was in during the conflict?  Was he positioned in the "left half of the skirmish line, which made initial contact or was he part of the group that "had to rush to their left to join the engagement? Since Messersmith reported "charging up the slough," I am comfortable in asserting that he was not in the left half of the skirmish line when it contacted the Kickapoo position. That probably (but not definatively) puts him somewhere between Dodge (at the center of the line) and Charles Bracken (on the right of the line.)

What distance did Messersmith have to charge? Since we don't know his exact place in the skirmish line, this question is difficult to answer. According to the 1828 Abstract drill manual, Dodge's skirmishers were supposed to keep 6 paces (about 15 feet) between each man. Dodge's twenty-man line would theoretically have extended for some 57 yards. Since men tend to bunch up when moving through brush, and Dodge's line was obliquing to the left while moving forward, I would think that the furthest Messersmith would have had to run would have been 20-25 yards. Most reasonably fit persons can cover 20-25 yards of rather open terrain in a few seconds. If he was closer to the center, or on the extreme left flank, the distance (and hence time taken) would have been much less.

Was Messersmith still charging while discharging the three weapons? This is a possibility, but I think it more likely than not that he stopped to fire. Remember that the melee was in full swing, and there was a real liklihood that Messersmith might hit one of his own comrades if he fired wildly while running. Further, he was using his palm as a powder measure...something extremely impractical to do while running. I suspect he, like Dodge, stopped and fired deliberately. Whether he hit anything, we do not know.

As for your assessment of Messersmith's "coolness," I think you are correct. Messersmith, like many volunteers that day, was very cool under fire. He, unlike some others after the war, was not prone to exaggerating his contributions to the war, or vainglorying in his accounts. I find his recollection level-headed and credible.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

Perhaps we are starting our battle clocks differently, therefore I will explain my parameters. In this skirmish time frame I am factoring in the time it takes for Dodge's command to dismount, secure horses, establish look outs, form a skirmish line, fire a volley, pause for the black powder smoke to clear, charge, (attempt to reload) engage in hand to hand fighting plus order a immediate mounted (or foot) patrol search to secure the perimeter of the area and dispatch the wounded or escaping enemy.

If your premise is based from the first shot fired to the end of the melee at the pond, I concede, that part of the skirmish could have been over in less than 5 minutes.

Larry

[Robert Braun]

My original premise in the thread "How long did the skirmish last?" was an assessment of the length of the action--meaning the battle itself.

Based on your detailed questions of April 16, I rather thought we were on the same page.

No matter. Glad we agree!

[Robert Braun]

"Of the party of GEN. DODGE in this sharp pursuit and sharper conflict, many were boys under twenty, and none that had ever before been under an enemy's fire. The conflict, like all those of the bayonet, was of the shortest-- not lasting, say the reports, over two minutes after the words were given to 'charge,' showing that there could have been no skulking or flinching in the ranks of either party."

---Henry S. Baird, Recollections of the Early History of Northern Wisconsin, 1859, p. 87.

[Larry Koschkee]

H. S. Townsend, Private... Dodge's Mounted Volunteers

"We went to Fort Hamilton, 4 men were killed there the day before. Apple was killed there; his head was split open and brains piled up. Indians started for Pecatonica. Our men got to them. A pond with high bank around it served for breast works. Were 15 Indians and 12 whites. Indians had Apple's gun. They shot 3 whites; we forty feet away rushed and killed them all in ONE MINUTE."

Vernon County Censor, Wed. August 10, 1898...speech by 84 year old H.S. Townsend on the 66th anniversary of the Battle of Bad Axe.

[Robert Braun]

...except that Townsend was a horseholder, and not involved in the fight directly. Dr. Hill exchanged places with Townsend, whom the good doctor described as a "sickly looking youth."

Townsend was likely told about the engagement very shortly thereafter.

Reagrds, Bob

[Larry Koschkee]

I do understand that Townsend was not directly involved in the melee... The quote was inserted here merely to shoot additional holes in the "modern account" position that the battle was lengthy.

No matter when or from whom he learned the information. It speaks volumes... Perhaps not only was he a horseholder, but was in charge of the stop watch.

LWK

[Robert Braun]

LOL! ;D

You humor and insight is as refreshing as always!

Regards, Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

This "How long did the skirmish last?" story is getting longer, or perhaps, shorter depending on how you view it.

Henry Dodge to Captain John Sherman, (Hamilton Fort, June 16th, 1832)

"Sir our men buried the five men killed at Spafford's farm before my arrival at this place yesterday morning. The Indians killed a man in less than 1/2 mile from this place. I instantly pursued them with 29 mounted men. I came in sight of them in about 2 1/2 miles and pursued them into a bend of the Pecatonica. I dismounted my men, linked my horses, left four men in charge of them and advancing at open order under trail arms until I come up with them. I had placed on the hills, four pointers to prevent their escape. 21 of us advanced on the Indians. We received their full fire, by which three of our men fell severely wounded. I instantly ordered a charge on them which was obeyed with the greatest prompitude. IN LESS THAN HALF A MINUTE we killed the whole party consisting of eleven men and got their scalps..."

pp. 607-608, Vol II, The BHW, 1831-1832, Ellen Whitney

In future research on the subject of this thread, I fully expect to find an account citing a one or two second blast resulting in nothing but scorched earth at the battle site... ;D

Larry K