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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 22, 2003 22:49:39 GMT -5
Quite coincidentally, I took a day off from work today to travel to meet face to face Mr. Neil Giffey, of Dodgeville. Like Dr. Dean Connors (the driving force behind the stabilization of the Prairie Springs Hotel south of Mineral Point) Mr. Giffey and friends were responsible for saving one of the original mining cabins from the original October, 1827 settlement that would become Fountain Street, downtown Dodgeville. Mr. Giffey is also quite possibly the greatest living repository of information on Henry Dodge and the Dodge family.
Based on my hours of discussions with Mr. Giffey, I offer the following corrections to assertions I made earlier today on this thread:
1. I correct my assertion that government agents were circulating in the 1827-8 Dodge's Camp seeing to collect lead and land rents. In fact, they were only collecting lead taxes. I incorrectly interpreted a poor newspaper copy on Dodge's settlement, and read "lead" as "land."
2. My indication that Dodge lived humbly in a one story log home after the Black Hawk War was based on two early 1900s newspaper accounts of visits to the former Dodge's Grove south of Dodgeville (where Dodge moved in 1829 or 1830.) I have since learned that these accounts were inaccurate and the information I reported based on these writings likewise inaccurate. According to Dodge family recollections, and a floor plan of the Dodge home at Dodge's Grove, the home was instead a two story frame house, painted white, with second story dormer windows. It was by all accounts a very nice house, and home to a very busy household.
3. Mr. Giffey asserted that there are several anecdotal stories that Dodge arrived in present-day Dodgeville with his spouse, some nine children, three families of black persons, and some forty "associates" (my word.) While I personally have yet to establish this as a fact, I bow to Mr. Giffey's research of and discussions with senior persons once living in Dodgeville who shared oral history and traditions with him many years ago. As such, I concede Larry's point made in his 12/21 post regarding a "small army of miners."
I was very pleased to have the priviledge of meeting with Mr. Giffey and to view first-hand the original cabin.
Reagrds, Bob.
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Post by Dan Brunner on Dec 23, 2003 12:59:58 GMT -5
I can see the perspectives here differ wildly. Not only with regards to Henry Dodge but the times in general. It is still difficult for me to accept the fact that because the Treaties, Laws, Acts, etc were on the books that it should be expected that they were known, understood, or interperted by all in the same way and at the same time. No CNN, No eMail, No Chopper 4 hovering above Mineral Point broadcasting the misdeeds of miscreant lead miners. Unlike now, no public outcry.
I am not saying Henry Dodge was justified at all. Only that in that particular place and during that time in history his actions were more the norm. No different than the inexorable march of the european white man from Jamestown, Over the Alleghenies, into the Ohio Valley, the Northwest Territory, and after Dodge to the Pacific. All fell in the path of this movement. Again I am not saying it was right, fair, legal or moral. Injustices to the Native American were indeed rampant. Handwinging does no more good now than it did then.
My admiration for men of the frontier was of their character as leaders. I admire Tecumseh, Red Cloud, Chief Joseph, Black Fish, Cornstalk, Pontiac, as much as I do Clark, Robert Rogers, Kenton, Harrison, Dodge and men of their ilk. Like all men, not without some dirt on their paws.
We should also remember that anyone who thinks that America before the white mans arrival was a utopia for Native Americans had better look again. The pushing and shoving for power and land between the tribes was widespread and brutal. Some of this internicine warfare was interupted by the arrival of the europeans. Some of it continued. Some tribes allied themselves with the whites for more power and or their own protection only to be cheated later. Sadly, not many came out ahead.
Mr. Koschkee is obviously well read, his opinions are well sated, and I respect them. I believe I would lose a debate hands down. I can't help but feel if you are not an attorney you missed your calling. No disrespect intended.
Best regards
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Dec 23, 2003 14:48:18 GMT -5
Mr. Brunner, I can find common ground with many of the points stated in your last post... but... SUH, I take offense to your inference that I am a lawyer or should be one. In my opinion a lawyer is the lowest form of white man there is. I am removing the two pistols in my belt butt first, choose one SUH, step back, turn east ten paces spin and fire. You are on your own Son...  Seriously, I defer to Mr. Robert Braun and several others on this message board for being extraordinary articulate in making excellent points. Just between you and I Mr. Brunner, I go out of my way to get Mr. Braun all stirred up. It is at that moment, that he is in his best form as an educator. Just keep that between you and I.. OK? The best to you, Larry Koschkee |
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Post by Dan Brunner on Dec 24, 2003 9:20:57 GMT -5
I Hereby fall on my sword and withdraw the "Lawyer" remark. We have indeed found common ground here.
Read your post on Privies and discovered you are a son of the middle border and a farm boy to boot. I also was raised on a Dairy Farm, almost in the shadow of Blue Mounds.
Thouroughly enjoy the verbal sparring between Mr. Braun and yourself on this thread. I suppose I am digressing from the subject matter here.
Best regards
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Dec 27, 2003 22:40:18 GMT -5
Before responding to Mr. Braun's last post an interesting observation just occured to me. Mr. Braun started this thread by defending Dodge with an analogous reference to our "Blessed Lord." Many posts later "Satan" is brought into the discussion. Two extemes here. I would like to keep Dodge historically somewhere in the middle.
Respectful of his accomplishments, but critical of some of his behavior, I examine the lives of others also, but this thread is about Dodge.
Another thought occured to me, which is framed in a question I should have asked in the beginning of this thread. When one refers to Dodge as "The Old Roman" what does that mean? Is the nickname to be taken in an affectionate, derogatory or contemptuous context? When I am involved in horse trading I look for soundness, confirmation, certain markings and color. If I am presented a horse with a "Roman Nose" it is generally disqualified.
Bob said: Many writers had sretched to presume that Dodge automatically new. 1827 in the Mining District - you would have to be from another planet to not know about the simple basic regulations.
1) You need a license or permit to work a claim or smelter within the "Five League Square" reserve that was set aside from Winnebago land.
2) Mining on Indian land was forbidden ( Bracken's account indicated the miners knew the difference between reserve and Indian lands.)
3) The ore must be smelted at a licensed smelter.
4) The U. S. Government collected a 10% tax or rent on the mineral.
This is not exactly "rocket science" here.
If you can answer yes to all of the following questions, I would concede that Dodge was within the law in his mining activities.
1) Did Dodge obtain a permit from the Regulatory Agency for a mining claim or smelters survey?
2) Did Dodge mine on U. S. Government Public lands?
3) Did Dodge take the mineral ore to a licensed smelter?
4) Did Dodge pay the appropriate Government rent or tax?
to be continued...
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Dec 27, 2003 23:02:38 GMT -5
Mr. Braun said: Secondly, I have serious doubts about the origins of both the "sore-shinned Regulars" quote, and the "if the wanted trouble could have it on cheap terms" ascribed to Dodge. We have already seen where Dodge might have said the dormer, but certainly not in public and unquestionably not in in an official lettter. So what are the origins of the other so-called "quote?" I have only a secondary source, which was posted by me in a thread titled "An Oneida Indian in Dodge's Company?... "Two Peas in a Pod"...Dodge's Indian Policy paragraph. History of Iowa County, 1881, pp 737-738.
...it is narrated that soon after the arrival of Gen. Dodge, the band of Indians alluded to, learning who he was, assembled with their fire-arms, and at his first approach, fired a salute. The General proceeded to lay down the law, in a very delibereate and firm manner, informing the reds, that, if they conducted themselves, properly, they would receive kind treatment at his hands and from the remainder of the whites, otherwise they should have all the trouble and fight that they might invite.
Mr. Braun said: This thread has proven my base contention: Dodge's high crime and misdemeanor was not that he was a Southerner, or a slave holder, or gun toting white guy. Rather he dared to allegedly "trepass" on Indian lands! Good thing he didn't kill anybody!
I strongly disagree with that premise... The very first post on this thread was an accolade by a Dodge admirer, Peter Parkinson, Jr., a Black Hawk War hero ordainment and a "victim" defense for Dodge. Disagreement with those positions is more than just about trespassing on Indian land. Its about examining Dodge's charachter and leadership qualities. Based on what I know about Old Dodge, I think he has stood the test of time and scrutiny quite well. Several individuals on this message board have defended the man admirably.
In life he raised the ire of many a man, invoked respect and loyality - in his death it is so. Today - 2003 we experience the same in Dodge.
Larry Koschkee
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Post by pshrake on Dec 27, 2003 23:49:17 GMT -5
There have been some excellent remarks made here by Larry and by Bob and also by Dan. I mainly write to reply to Dan Brunners remark "It is still difficult for me to accept the fact that because the Treaties, Laws, Acts, etc were on the books that it should be expected that they were known, understood, or interperted by all in the same way and at the same time." Dan is right to an extent. But there should be some clarification here, as far as treaties are concerned, I think we can certainly state that Dodge was very knowlegeable about several treaties relevant to this matter. For some time, I had been looking for a copy of General Henry Atkinson's treaty with the HoChunk made in September, 1827. This was the treaty signed at the Portage after Atkinson had moved up the Wisconsin River and shortly after the surrender of Red Bird. I am embarrased to say that after looking for a copy of this treaty I finnally found one amongst my own research papers, in fact in a file of documents that copied some 6 years ago.  Its sure nice to know Im on top of things ;D The treaty was a brief one containing only two articles. the first article stated that a commission was to be sent to the HoChunk in the following summer to adress the issue of boundaries between the Illinois tribes and the HoChunk (basically to establish the clear boundary of the HoChunk tribe) and to resolve the claims of depredations made by both miners and HoChunk from preceding years. The second article stated "Until the above council shall meet and fix the line of demarkation, all citizens of the United States, Liscenced by the President, or his agents, shall procure mineral in the district of country now and heretofore used for that purpose by the white people, free from the encroachment or interruption of the Winnebago Indians." Dodge was present at this treaty council and signed this treaty as a witness. This means several things. He was personally aquinted with one treaty establishing a tentative peace between the HoChunk and the U.S. and he knew that there was going to be a new treaty negotiated the following summer in wich the boundary line to the lead district was going to be fixed. Or at least attempted to be fixed. He also knew that he had to be liscenced in order to enter the disputed region. He also knew that if he moved into the disputed region the HoChunk had agreed to let miners alone, an agreement signed under the presence of a sizeable detatchment of the U.S. Army. Pete Shrake |
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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 29, 2003 16:42:21 GMT -5
So much to respond to here... I know I will do an imperfect job.  Please allow me to respond to some of the salient points. What Dodge knew. Since we seem to be dealing primarily from the standpoint of opinion as to "who" knew "what," I will (later in this post) quote from a letter from Agent Marsh which will shed a little light on the perceived knowledge base of some lead miners, including Dodge who was present at the proceedings of early February, 1828. This supports Pete's excellent post, which established additional facts for what Dodge perhaps knew-- or was supposed to have known. I have maintained that the chronology of Dodge's activities upon arrival at Galena are a major clue to what agencies and head quarters he was supposed to have frequented. Regarding Charles Bracken... what lead diggings did he operate?  Dodge the superlative. My comments regarding our Blessed Lord were in reference to the propesity of modern scholarship to cherry-pick only those facts required to prove a pre-determined point, for example saying that a sound-byte involving Jesus's reaction to the money-changers in the Temple--repeated out of context over and over and unchallenged by an agreeing academic autocracy-- would paint our Blessed Lord in a very different light, would it not? Just so... the cherry-pickings of Drs Eby, Murphy, "Rush For Grey Gold," et al--- repeated out of context over and over and unchallenged by an agreeing academic autocracy-- establish the Black Hawk War's 'great Satan' for several Ameican generations. Such a boogeyman is needed... because we dare NOT examine the likes of Black Hawk critically. Why? Because a.) he's an Indian (oops... 'native american') and b.) because the Black Hawk War is "all about Black Hawk." I have and continue to applaud the writings of every contributor to this thread! However, I fear that Larry's point that Dodge " has stood the test of time and scrutiny quite well" falls substantially on deaf ears outside of this thread! Every Wisconsin school child knows about Black Hawk, but I can comfortably assert, based on several years of personal experience, that not one middle schooler in fifty has even HEARD of Henry Dodge, let alone knew his context in history! Dodge the "Old Roman"The term “Old Roman” connected with Henry Dodge was mentioned in several commentaries… including an 1883 letter to A. C. Dodge written by Doty cousin Morgan Lewis Martin. Recalling a visit to the Dodge homestead, he remembered “ the rude log cabin in Dodgeville where Hon. Lucius Lyons and myself were hospitably entertained, in 1828, by your excellent parents. It seems like a dream. I recognize the portly Roman, the saintly wife, the stalwart lads and modest daughters, comprising the household…” In a time when many men of note bore monikers, Dodge appears to have acquired the “Old Roman” late in life. The term’s meaning is intended not the equine ;D but in the classic sense. The inference here, as in the toast preserved the History of Iowa County --“ Henry Dodge… citizen… hero… and statesman!” -- is the combination of the citizen-soldier and statesman seen in many of the great Roman leaders; which Dodge embodied in the minds of a good number of his contemporaries. It may also be a reference to his propensity to read aloud from the classics to his household, particularly his grandchildren, as means of their education and edification. The Line of DemarcationIn support of Mr. Pete’s findings, we have the communication from John Marsh, sub-agent, written on February 7, 1828 to (I presume) Agent Joseph M. Street (Salter, pp. 351-2): It would seem that the treaty-making of six months later, circa August 1828, made such a move on the part of Dodge a moot point. Did they have mineral licenses, and did the government take the 10% tax? Since Sub-Agent Marsh did not dwell on this fact, we can infer little. I doubt that any 10% was taken, because the land was not then considered part of the government reserve. (Before we commence a re-arguement on the subject of lawlessness, I would again gently reiterate that our fair country was founded on civil disobedience in the face of what was described--and we Americans do generally accept as a matter of course-- as unfair taxation. Noone thus far in this thread has come out against the civil disobedience spawned by the Townsend Duties, or the Boston tea-tossers... ) Writings and evidence shared by Mr. Neal Giffey indicate that movements of lead diggers out of the initial 'Dodgeville' settlement on present-day Fountain Street occured in response to government agents prowling the locale to collect the lead tax after the negotiation of the Winnebago treaties. Dodge himself eventually did remove... to Dodge's Grove at an uncertain date, but definately before the outbreak of the BHW. My guess would be around 1830-1. |
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Post by Robert Braun on Dec 30, 2003 10:13:26 GMT -5
In a recent post, Larry wrote:
A re-read of my initial post does indeed indicate that Peter Parkinson, Jr. wrote with "admiration" and "affection" regarding Dodge-- these from personal experiences and personal encounters. PPJ likewise accurately reported the admiration and esteem held by others, both during and after Dodge's life. However, the fact that someone is liked and admired doesn't necessarily make them a hero...
...unless of course Dodge's life accomplishments were considered worthy of adulation and admiration. Clearly, the majority of his contemporaries saw him that way, and his personal contribution as THE driving force behind the defeat of Black Hawk stands as one of his many life accomplishments.
(Sidebar... An Indian Agent (Street?) characterized Black Hawk as someone who did not mistreat the white man... saying he welcomed him to his own lodge and "always gave him good food to eat and a good blanket to sleep on before the fire..." or words to that effect. I would suggest that perhaps this agent spoke from some first hand knowledge of Black Hawk. This begs the question... "Is this, too, 'hero ordainment'?" )
Regarding Dodge the "victim"--- I do not believe my initial post laid any claim to a "victim" defense. My assertions later in the thread that Dodge had been unfairly singled out by Agent Street and associates is an established fact, given the many precedents/examples I cited where similar lead operations allegedly located in Winnebago country had not been dealt with in a similar fashion by the authorities.
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Jan 8, 2004 17:57:35 GMT -5
My apologies here for referring to Dodge as a "hero" and furthermore in light of an ordainment. It was a mistake to view admiration and adulation in a "hero" sense. I stand corrected. Going forward I will refer to Dodge as a A principle figure in the BHW
The Dodge-Henry controversy is not about who can claim hero status but who was the "principal figure." I think I am finally getting it.
In addition, I stand corrected on the statement about a "victim defense." Evidently he was a target rather than a victim of "revisionist history and video products", or modern historians that were cherry-picking certain issues with Dodge. I think it is finally sinking in.
An inquiry was made about Charles Bracken's diggings?
I have not yet found a reference to Bracken active in a mineral claim. A couple sources indicate he and a partner John Van Matre operated a smelting furnace in what is now Williow Springs Township of Lafayette Count, WI in about 1831-1832. Later he and partner John Smith erected a blast furnace near Otter Creek in Willow Springs Township to smelt copper ore.
regards,
Larry Koschkee
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Post by Robert Braun on Mar 17, 2004 9:26:41 GMT -5
This thread is taking a few twist and turns. I have followed the comments intently and what started as a few notes jotted down are building to pages. To help me understand the position taken on tribual land encroachment by Dodge and others I would present two questions to Mr. Braun... Do you condone the anarchy exhibited by Dodge and others in the 1820s and 1830s? Are we not a nation of laws... then and now? Larry K. Some time ago, Larry posed this question regarding the activities of Col. Henry Dodge in the Mineral District, ca. 1827 and later. Larrry's questions are perfectly germane to the discussion. I am curious, however, in light of these questions, how the standards and questions applied to Dodge would be applied to the current lawlessnees exhibited by a.) local and state officials issuing so-called "marriage licenses" to same-sex partners in defiance of state laws; and b.) the State of Wisconsin seeting up a website to facilitate purchase of prescription drugs from Canada, in violation of Federal law. Anarchy? Regards, Bob. |
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Post by Robert Braun on Nov 22, 2005 15:00:46 GMT -5
One of the issues that prompted the start of this board was to side-step preconceived notions, popular history and generally accepted "facts," and instead commence an inquiry anew-- and from scratch. Our goal was to be led where the evidence directed, and not the other way round.
Using the scientific principals underlying "accuracy" and "precision," I have proposed that we dig into the source documentation in an attempt to uncover a better fix on Henry Dodge. I am hoping that a research endeavor into the Dodge papers at various repositories will shed a stronger light on the figure we have bantered about in this thread and elsewhere.
With luck, we will trek to one such repository this winter.
Bob Braun.
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Nov 28, 2005 18:06:33 GMT -5
Good luck on your research endeavor. Is it possible, William Salter and Louis Pelzer left some skeletons in Henry Dodge's closet?
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Post by Robert Braun on Nov 30, 2005 9:01:57 GMT -5
Good luck on your research endeavor. Is it possible, William Salter and Louis Pelzer left some skeletons in Henry Dodge's closet? Larry that's a great question. I don't know at present. Further, a search of available Dodge records identified only three repositories, and the holdings are IMHO sparse. For exaple, the Iowa holding appear to house only the documents pertaining to Dodge's public service (his commissions as militia officer, sheriff, etc. itemized by Salter) and the orderly book from his 1834 Dragoon service. Hopefully there is more... and Pete Shrake has graciously agreed to accompany me to Iowa this winter and search. We may be able to glean more information about Dodge "the man" from correspondence. To that end, there are two microfilmed letters collections in the Wisconsin Hisotrical Society of of other early Wisconsin pioneers, in which Dodge is mentioned. I know for certain that there are other Dodge letters filed in other records at the Society under other pertinent topical headings, as Mike Thorson and I saw and handled them on a research trip in 2002. Also of interest are artifacts and relics. I am aware that the WHS has some items... an 1830s-1840s uniform coat and chapeau bras ascribed to Dodge. Maybe more? It may be most dissappointing to learn that the family items and trophies collected by Dodge over the years and given to the state for safekeeping may have burned up in the February 27, 1904 fire... but I do not yet know this for a fact. A robust inquiry with the Wisconsin Historical Society may yet yield results, because I suspect few have bothered to actually inquire. The search continues... Bob. |
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Nov 30, 2005 12:26:33 GMT -5
Bob -
I do have a cold lead for you on some possible Dodge correspondence. Pulled it out of my Missouri "tickle" file.
While going from pillar to post in researching the Leonard - Berry Duel of 1824 in Missouri and the dotted line of slave ownership from Virginia to KY and Missouri, thence to the Michigan Territory, I made an acquaintance with a Mr. Maximillian (Max) Horstow of Saint Louis MO. Our common topic of discussion was mining and the mover and shakers that opened up mining in Missouri, Illinois and Michigan Territory. He had observed some correspondence at the Missouri Historical Society between the Dodge's of the Michigan Territory and the Linn family of Ste. Genevieve, MO. Lewis Fields Linn was a half-brother to Henry Dodge.
Never got a chance to follow up this lead. For what it is worth I thought I would mention it.
Pete and you, going to Iowa this winter... Hmmmmmm. Would it be prudent to give fair warning to residents there. Say, remove women and children from the streets? ;D
Larry
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Its sure nice to know Im on top of things ;D 
Please allow me to respond to some of the salient points.