Post by MustangGray on Jan 3, 2006 14:44:14 GMT -5
Mr. Koschkee,
Very interesting... I would certainly like to see Mr. Sabinas' research in publication, that's the first I've heard of Anglo influence in Mexican saddle design.
I would like to post Mr. Grimsley's comments regarding the horned saddle... however my links aren't working and I can't add his commentary here at this time. In short Grimsley promoted the Spanish design not because of it's horn but because of it's rawhide covering which made it strong and well suited to hard use. Regarding safety and the saddle horn if I remember correctly the US military ended up cutting the horns off of a number of these saddles due to the accidents cause by their presence. I also remember reading about accidents caused by the high pommels on Grimsley's military pattern saddles in use during the Mexican War. As far as the horn being utilitarian the US military didn't seem to have any new uses for it that the pommel and pommel rings couldn't handle on the Walker, M41, Ringgold, Grimsley or the Macs. Anglo civilians seem to have picked up on the usefulness in roping after they started working cattle mid to late 19th century but aside from that civilian use a horn isn't really that special.
I failed to dig the name out on the firm I mentioned earlier but it may well have been an offshoot of Grimsley's St. Louis operation... I'm not sure. The saddles in question weren't ordered until 1839 or 1840 though and wouldn't make it in under the deadline for the Texian Revolution. The other side to that particular trail is I'm not sure if the order was for a horned saddle or a more traditional European military saddle(ie. a hussar or flat seat). There was also a saddle in production during the 1840's in Louisiana that I'm sure you're aware of known as the Attakapas though I'm not sure in what numbers it was produced and what sort of circulation it had.
The possibilities of Hope working for Grimsley are indeed interesting. I would submit though that the saddles that Grimsley was making in the 30's are different from those made by Hope in the design/shape of the horn and the depth of the cantle, least ways according to fur trade artwork(supposing the saddles are the ones supplied by Grimsley to the American Fur Company). The horned saddles of the midwest have a distinctly high horn/pommel and a deep cantle while those made by Hope were characterized by a low to almost nonexistent cantle and a very low horn/pommel.
All this having been said the common saddle in use by most of the civilian populace would have been the flat seat/English type saddle until the 1850's when the Hope started making a name for itself in the saddle world.
I'd like to forward this thread to some saddle enthusiasts over on my ROT board if it's alright with the moderators here.
Dios, libertad y Tejas,
Scott McMahon
Boonville Mess
PS-anytime you get a hankering to come down and ride let me know... we seem to have a big ride every other year or so now.
Very interesting... I would certainly like to see Mr. Sabinas' research in publication, that's the first I've heard of Anglo influence in Mexican saddle design.
I would like to post Mr. Grimsley's comments regarding the horned saddle... however my links aren't working and I can't add his commentary here at this time. In short Grimsley promoted the Spanish design not because of it's horn but because of it's rawhide covering which made it strong and well suited to hard use. Regarding safety and the saddle horn if I remember correctly the US military ended up cutting the horns off of a number of these saddles due to the accidents cause by their presence. I also remember reading about accidents caused by the high pommels on Grimsley's military pattern saddles in use during the Mexican War. As far as the horn being utilitarian the US military didn't seem to have any new uses for it that the pommel and pommel rings couldn't handle on the Walker, M41, Ringgold, Grimsley or the Macs. Anglo civilians seem to have picked up on the usefulness in roping after they started working cattle mid to late 19th century but aside from that civilian use a horn isn't really that special.
I failed to dig the name out on the firm I mentioned earlier but it may well have been an offshoot of Grimsley's St. Louis operation... I'm not sure. The saddles in question weren't ordered until 1839 or 1840 though and wouldn't make it in under the deadline for the Texian Revolution. The other side to that particular trail is I'm not sure if the order was for a horned saddle or a more traditional European military saddle(ie. a hussar or flat seat). There was also a saddle in production during the 1840's in Louisiana that I'm sure you're aware of known as the Attakapas though I'm not sure in what numbers it was produced and what sort of circulation it had.
The possibilities of Hope working for Grimsley are indeed interesting. I would submit though that the saddles that Grimsley was making in the 30's are different from those made by Hope in the design/shape of the horn and the depth of the cantle, least ways according to fur trade artwork(supposing the saddles are the ones supplied by Grimsley to the American Fur Company). The horned saddles of the midwest have a distinctly high horn/pommel and a deep cantle while those made by Hope were characterized by a low to almost nonexistent cantle and a very low horn/pommel.
All this having been said the common saddle in use by most of the civilian populace would have been the flat seat/English type saddle until the 1850's when the Hope started making a name for itself in the saddle world.
I'd like to forward this thread to some saddle enthusiasts over on my ROT board if it's alright with the moderators here.
Dios, libertad y Tejas,
Scott McMahon
Boonville Mess
PS-anytime you get a hankering to come down and ride let me know... we seem to have a big ride every other year or so now.