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Post by Susan Gordy on Feb 8, 2003 15:21:42 GMT -5
Hey gang! I am reading "Pioneer Life in Wisconsin" by Daniel M. Parkinson and came across this statement,"While living here I had no neighbors nearer than twelve miles, except a family of Oneida Indians from the State of New York, the head of which served in General Dodge's squadron during the Black Hawk War". I found it interesting and am seeking comment. Has there been anything else said about Indians in Dodge's company?
Susan
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Post by pshrake on Feb 8, 2003 21:05:55 GMT -5
I can not speak for Dodge's company, but, it strikes me as very interesting that some Oneida were found in his company.
The Oneida were relatively new to the region and were a part of a 6 nation band of Indians including the Stockbridge, Munsee, St Regis, Onondaga, and Tuscarora tribes trying to emigrate to Wisconsin from New York. Often the period accounts lump them all together simply as the "New York Indians"
Not to digress on what really is a irrelevant story as far as this thread is concerned, but the Oneida began a slow and piecemeal emigration process begining after 1822. By 1832 there were still only small numbers of the tribe here. As far as I know the vast majority were living just outside of Green Bay, north of the Fox River.
When the Menominee were forming up thier companies in July the New York Indians were approached by Matthew Irwin. The U.S. wanted them to serve alongside the Menominee but they would have none of it. There were some longtime and rather deep bitterness between the two peoples. Irwin's appeal to the tribe is the only instance I knew of where the tribe was invited to join in the war.
You raise a very interesting question.
How did a Oneida get into Dodge's Company??
Pete
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Feb 8, 2003 23:20:17 GMT -5
Very interesting indeed, Susan, to learn the possibility of an Oneida Indian in Dodge's company or any other Indian tribal member for that matter... Here is an excellent example of how valuable the muster rolls of the Michigan Territory Militia would be in providing a possible answer to this question.
Pete gave an excellent synopsis of the migration of some of the old Iroquois Confederacy tribes into Wisconsin. These tribes were treading lightly in their new homeland and desired to maintain a low profile not wanting to alienate themselves with other tribes.
In addition to Irwin's (Pete, I believe this was Col. Robert Irwin, Jr. rather than William was it not?) appeal to the Oneida to join in the Black Hawk War, George Boyd, U. S. Indian Agent at Green Bay also made an appeal... refer to Whitney's The Black Hawk War 1831-1832, Vol. II, Part II, pp 876-877
We will have to give Mr. Parkinson the benefit of doubt whether he really knew his neighbor was in fact a Oneida. The closest Oneida settlement to Mr. Parkinson's home in LaFayette County, Wisconsin would have been on Duck Creek between Dekorree and the Portage along the Wisconsin River.
On another note, I find it highly unlikely, that given Henry Dodge's "Jacksonian" disposition towards Indians, that he would induct an Indian into his command... But then again, he may have made an exception because, many of the Wisconsin Oneida that came to Wisconsin in the 1820s were converted to christianity through the Episcopal Church and there was a group of Oneida Methodists known as the "Orchard Party."
Larry K.
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Post by pshrake on Feb 9, 2003 21:57:45 GMT -5
Oops! you are right Larry, my slip, it was Robert Irwin who approached the Oneida at Green Bay.
Your comment concerning Methodism among the Oneida brings up another matter. The New York Tribes, especialy the Stockbridge and Oneida were educated and very sophisicated in terms of American ways. Through out thier boundary dispute with the Menominee and especially during councils in 1827, and 1831 they delivered eloquent, and legalistic briefs to U.S. Commissioners. These were not the normal oratory speechs as seen by other chiefs at council but prepared written, monographs on the case at hand.
This could also be another reason for thier acceptance into Dodge's command. Though not every member of the tribe was as articulate and educated as say Daniel Bread or John W. Quinney, the tribes as a whole had amalgomated more into white culture than others of the region.
Pete
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Post by Robert Braun on Mar 7, 2003 17:53:54 GMT -5
On another note, I find it highly unlikely, that given Henry Dodge's "Jacksonian" disposition towards Indians, that he would induct an Indian into his command... But then again, he may have made an exception because, many of the Wisconsin Oneida that came to Wisconsin in the 1820s were converted to christianity through the Episcopal Church and there was a group of Oneida Methodists known as the "Orchard Party." Larry K. I for one would be curious to learn of Dodge's "'Jacksonian' disposition towards Indians" and the reasons behind this assertion. I submit that, although Dodge would have more reasons that many of his contemporaries to harbor antipathy towards native people, this tendancy does not appear to be borne out in his hisoric dealings with Indians. 1. Andrew Jackson lead army toops that decimated native tribes at Tallapoosa during the War of 1812. Dodge personally intervened to prevent a massacre of Miamis people during that same war; 2. Jackson's indian relocation policies have been discussed here and elsewhere. Dodge ventured into Winnebago land an negotiated a personal deal with local indian people for the purposes of mining lead, similar to other diggers in the region (notice I did not say "treaty"---which as Peter has expertly indicated in other threads, only the Federal Government has the ability to negotiate treaties.) It seems that American agents had more heartburn with Dodge's private deal than did Indian people; 3. Dodge's attack on the Kickapoo war-party at Bloody Lake was in retaliation and revenge for the Spafford Field murders, and the Henry Apfel murder. There is no evidence that prior to these attacks, that Dodge engaged in any "search and destroy" missions; 4. While many (although not on this board) have offered critical analysis of Dodge's arrest of Winnebago chieftains, it is apparent that his actions casued the desired effect-- pausing/forstalling a kind of Winnebago alliance with BH-- and certainly short of bloodshed; 5. Dodge sought out Winnebago people while at Fort Winnebago, and inquired as to the whereabouts of Black Hawk and his band. He and General Henry utilized upwards of twelve Winnebago scouts, aong with Pauquette, in the pursuit of BH from the Rock River Rapids to Wisconsin Heights. Accounts point to White Crow fighting side-by-side with Dodge during the Battle of Wisconsin Heights. Instead of being "strange" or somehow against a "Jacksonian nature," I suggest that an Oneida Indian or other native people in Dodge's command would have been right in line with Dodge's demonstrated knowledge of and dealings with Indian people. Respectfully, Bob.
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Mar 8, 2003 22:19:39 GMT -5
The five talking points, Mr. Braun puts forth, to a certain extent, goes over alot of previously "plowed ground" posted on this message board to show that Henry Dodge was benevolent in his dealings with Indians... I disagree.
Andrew Jackson and Henry Dodge... were "like two peas in a pod." When one studies the lives of each one of these men, one finds, in many respects, similiarities. Both fiercely jealous of his honor, brawlers, duels, military careers, slave owners, Democrats and rising to high government positions, too name a few.
Henry Dodge was a manifestation of Andrew Jackson's military and government actions against Indians... move out of the way or perish. A "school yard bully" with heavy handed tatics to obtain the results he wanted in Indian relations. This was Jackson's disposition and Dodge demonstrated the same behavior.
Before I go any further, let me introduce a possible root cause of Dodge's dislike of Indians... E. G. Doudna, Secretary and Director of the Board of Regents of the State Normal Schools (Wisconsin) gave a speech at Woodford, WI (site of Battle of Pecatonica) on the 100th anniversary of the Black Hawk War. June 11, 1932
"Some Pioneers of the Black Hawk War"... Born in a Settler's Cabin. Dodge was born when his mother , moving from the East to the state of Missouri, had been forced to seek shelter overnight in a settlers cabin. At that time the Indian Chief in whose lands the cabin was located wanted to kill the baby, but finally had been placated. "Little did he know" Doudna said, "what that baby was to do to the Indians later.
DODGE'S INDIAN POLICY
Dodge the new bully on the block in 1827... It is narrated that soon after the arrival of Gen. Dodge, the band of Indians alluded to, learning who he was, assembled with their fire-arms, and, at his first approach, fired a salute. The General proceeded to lay down the law, in a very deliberate and firm manner, informing the reds, that, if they conducted themselves, properly, they would receive kind treatment at his hands and from the remainder of the whites, otherwise they should have all the trouble and fight that they might invite. History of Iowa County, 1881, pp 737-738... This is Dodge on Winnebago land telling them to behave or else.
The Sauks are a band of renagade outlaws, who should be killed wherever they are found.Whitney's Black Hawk War 1831-1832 Vol II, Part I, pg 512, Porter's Grove Council, June 3-4, 1832
Page 510 of same source. Dodge addressing the Winnebagoes at Porter's Council... There will be in a few days 2000 mounted men in the field, who will revenge the blood of our people which has been spilled by the Sacs, nothing but death and destruction await them... Justice, sound policy, and the example which has now become necessary to give us a lasting peace with all nations of indians with whom we have treaties, renedered it necessary that this band of Sacs should be extermininated and killed, like the pirates of sea, the hand of every man should be against them. They are the enemies of all kind.
On the 7th of June Col. Dodge, with his volunteers, marched to Kirker's farm, at the head of Apple river, where they camped, and Col Dodge addressed them: Although we have entire confidence in the Government of our choice, knowing, as we all do, that ours is a government of the people, where the equal rights of all are protected, and that the power of our countrymen can crush this savage foe... I have, as well as yourselves, entire confidence, both in the President of the United States, and the distinguished individual at the head of the War Department; that our Indian relations are better understood by those distinguished men, Jackson and Cass, than by any two citizens who could be selected to fill their stations. They have often met our savage enemies on the field of battle, where they have conquered them, and have often also met them in council... Like the pirates of the sea, their hand is against every man, and the hand of every man should be against them. Moses M. Strong History of the Territory of Wisconsin, 1836 to 1848, 1885, pp 138-139
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Mar 8, 2003 23:14:06 GMT -5
DODGE'S INDIAN POLICY cont...
General Dodge to Gen. Atkinson, Galena, August 26, 1827... Captain Henry, the Chairman of the Committee of Safety, will wait on you at Prairie du Chien, before your departure from that place. Capt. Henry is an intelligent gentleman, who understands well the situation of the country. The letter accompanying Gov. Cass' communications to you has excited in some measure the people in this part of the country. As the principal part of the efficient force is preparing to accompany you on your expedition up the Quisconsin, it might have a good effect to send a small regular force to this part of the country, an in our absence they might render protection to this region. I feel the importance of your having as many mounted men as the country can afford, to aid in punishing those insolent Winnebagoes who are wishing to unite, it would seem, in a common all the disaffected Indians on our borders. From information received last night, some straggling indians have been seen on our frontier
July 24th, 1832, letter Col. Dodge to General Atkinson...Be assured every possible exertion will be made to destroy the enemy crippled as they must be with their wounded and families as well as their want of provision supplies. Illinois State Historical Library, Black Hawk War Collection - reprinted in Donald Jackson's Black Hawk - an Autobiography
Letter to Dr. Addison Philleo printed in Te Galenian Vol I, No. 8, June 20, 1832... also cited in Louis Pelzer's book on Dodge, page 56... I am convinced, that we are not to have peace with this banditti collection of Indians until they are killed up in their dens. They watch from the high points of timber our movements in daylight, and at night pass through the prairies from one point of timber to another, and communicate with the main, body, which are in the swamps of Rock River.
Letter to Major General MaComb... Dodge's Order Book, pp 15-16 and Pelzer's book, pg 74, Spring of 1833... I consider it important to the future growth of the country that the Winnebagoes should be forced to leave the country they have ceded to the U. S. (Sept. 15, 1832)
William R. Smith's History of Wisconsin, 1854, pg 206... Charles Bracken quote... When I got to the pond I found no enemy before me, and at the same moment I heard the general, who was a little to my left say, "There's and Indian, kill him!" I turned toward him and heard a shot, as I came up, the general said "There by God, I've killed him myself!" (This was the Kickapoo Indian commander at the Battle of the Pecatonica).
If you are Dodge's son-in-law, how do you fall into his good graces? Kill an Indian... It is said that Dodge's son-in-law, Captain Paschal Bequette in that battle (Pecatonica) shot and killed two of the war party, and so gained the friendship of the General... George Wallace Jones, 1912, pg 120, by John Carl Parish
Dodge carried his Indian policies into his Governor's Seat of the Wisconsin Territory by establishing the "Wisconsin Territory Seal." He consulted with engraver William Wagner of York, PA. The motto was: CIVILITAS SUCCESSITT BARBARUM "Civilization takes the place of barbarism." The scene on the seal shows Lake Michigan with a sail boat on the right and the Mississippi River with a steamboat on the left. An Indian is standing on the edge of the Miss. River looking to the west. In the middle is a busy scene of agriculture all giving the strong suggestion of Indians being pushed west across the Mississippi River.
I have yet to find historical accounts of Indian admiration or respect for Henry Dodge. Pre- 20th century Indian cultures respected the bravery of their opponent and measured themselves by the greatness of their opponent. No such words were uttered about Henry Dodge.
Black Hawk dedicated his autobiograpy to Gen. Henry Atkinson and gave praise to Illinois Militia, Major John Dement for his demonstrated bravery in the Kellogg's Grove fight.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 10, 2003 13:28:50 GMT -5
Larry I think you are confusing Dodge's ambitious and forceful nature and his desire to "exterminate" or "punish" or "defeat", "Kill" the FOE with a desire to do those things to all Native Americans, be they under arms and in conflict with white Americans or just following the laws of the U.S. and trying to co-exist. Just because he wanted to kill the Sac (meaning those in rebellion - did he propose to launch an attack on ALL Sac?) does not mean he was in favor of Native American extermination. Some, many, were undoubtedly in favor of exactly that and I'm not going to say that Dodge did not harbor a hostile attitude towards Native Americans in general.
This comes down to the crux of the argument and why it is almost impossible to talk about this subject because I think that most historians dealing in this subject can't shake themselves out of their biased "Pro-Native American" viewpoint for the simple reason that "they were here first, it was their land, it wasn't fair" mindset. You may be surprised to hear that I agree with that very mindset myself.
But, I can seperate that basic belief from trying to objectively look at what happened and why. Because if one doesn't, they naturally fall into the "evil white guy , noble Indian" mindset. The same thing happens in Civil War studies, especially from the neo-Confederates who refuse to objectively analyze the history of the war and what led to the war.
One could probably find plenty of genocidal, crazed white people and pure, noble unflawed Native Americans when studying the American / Indian conflicts - but I dont think this is the case when looking at Dodge and Black Hawk.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 10, 2003 13:32:04 GMT -5
I suggest you read Dodge's quotes but imagine that instead of fighting Black Hawk, Dodge was fighting the Confederates in the Civil War. Dodge is interested in defeating the enemy and I don't think there's really much more to it.
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Mar 10, 2003 21:32:19 GMT -5
Mike... thank you for your comments and opinions however, my views remain the same, which is... Dodge was not benevolent with his dealings with Indians.
Dodge's vehement actions and vehement words posted here are not to be confused with wanting to just defeat the immediate foe. I am sure there were other individuals in the BHW drama that were just as anxious to see Black Hawk's band defeated. When one reviews the written communication between the principal military or militia correspondents you will not find the antipathetic statements that Dodge put forth.
It is unfortunate that suddenly the subject of this thread was framed into a human good and evil conflict. I feel I am as objective on the human relations issue in American history as anyone. Hell... since Cain and Abel its been survival of the fittest. My ancestors in Europe were conquers for centuries and also of the conquered masses.
Tribual lands in the Americas' were fluid... expanding and contracting due to the survival of the fittest. These forces are with us today. This is reality!...
The scythe of what is called "civilation" is in motion, and everything will fall before it."
Larry Koschkee
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Post by Robert Braun on Mar 14, 2003 12:44:54 GMT -5
DODGE'S INDIAN POLICY cont...I have yet to find historical accounts of Indian admiration or respect for Henry Dodge. Pre- 20th century Indian cultures respected the bravery of their opponent and measured themselves by the greatness of their opponent. No such words were uttered about Henry Dodge. "Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence." So... here's some evidence to dispute your claim that "no such words were uttered about Henry Dodge" and to provide more perspective with regard to the Onieda Indain question, which started this thread. I realize I run the risk of being accused of "plowing old ground," but bear with me... In September 1814, Dodge commanded 350 mounted men, riding to the relief of the "Boone Lick Settlement." In his command was "forty friendly Shawnees commanded by four war captains-- Na-kour-me, Kish-ka-le-wa, Pap-pi-qua, and Wa-pe-pil-le-se." Apparently, Dodge's so-called "Jacksonian disposition toward indians" did not prevent this friendly alliance. With the Shawnee in the fore, the hostile Miamis, some thirty-one warriors and a reported one hundred and twenty-two were cornered at "Miami Bend." The Miamis surrendered, and Dodge called a council of officers "who advised that the Indians be received as prisoners and their lives be sacredly preserved." Despite finding the rifle of the slain potter Campbell among the Miamis, and the desire of the enraged Captain Cooper and his company to kill all the captives, Dodge personally intervened, thrust his sword point within 6 inches of Captain Cooper's breast, and reminded him of his pledge at the officer's council. Dodge was shortly joined by Major Daniel M. Boone, who "taunted Cooper with the treachery of the act he proposed." Cooper backed down. "The Indians now jumped to their feet with expressions of joy and gratitude to Dodge and Boone." And... "Twenty-one years later Kish-kal-le-wa visited his old commander at Fort Leavenworth and revived the incidents of this scene, in which Dodge had borne a most magnanimous part."* I could be wrong, but this would appear to be an "historical account of Indian admiration or respect for Henry Dodge." *Source: Peltzer Henry Dodge pp. 23-26. Dare I mention the treaty of peace brokered by Dodge on the western plains, August 14, 1835, between the Cheyenne and the Arikara and Pawnee? Dodge closed the council by reportedly saying to the assembled cheifs and headmen "You will be convinced that your true interest is to hold each other strong by the hand as brothers and freinds, and never again stain your hands by the blood of another." The Cheyenne desired Dodge to remain for several days, so they could hunt and provide him with presents of buffalo meat. Again, while not recorded in the style and manner of Black Hawk's Autobiography I suggest that this and other simlar instances demonstrate an "historical account of Indian admiration or respect for Henry Dodge." Lieut. Kingsbury wrote: The good effects of the expedition are thus becoming apparant, and it will probably have the effect to establish peace among all the different tribes between the Arkansas and the Platte.On active campaign and in open warfare against hostile opponants, Dodge was formidable, both in written word and in martial deeds. That has not been disputed by me on this board. However, in the context of Dodge's lifelong dealings with native people, there are numerous instances of his "benevolence" in dealing with them... both personally and as an instrument of National policy.
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Post by Larry Koschkee on Mar 14, 2003 13:38:30 GMT -5
Interesting.... but, where in these historical accounts you have cited are there specific Indian quotations of "uttered words" of praise or admiration of Dodge?
Larry Koschkee
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Post by Robert Braun on Mar 14, 2003 15:05:30 GMT -5
Larry, in your statement..
.. you asked for historical accounts. I have provided two examples.
Now you're asking for specific native quotes. You have changed the framework of the discussion.
Regardless... I will attempt to accomodate you.
1. On July, 23 1834, Dodge held council with the Pawnee, Comanche, Kiowa and Wecos, in an attempt to negotiate peace among themselves-- particularly with the Osages. Present at the council was Beatte, the leader of the Osage band. He reportedly addressed the council:
We look at our friend [Colonel Dodge] as our father. He is a true father to us all.
2. Almost a year later, on June 21, 1835, Dodge held council at the Grand Pawnee Village... where Angry Man stood as chief (as you probably already know, at that time the Pawnee were divided into four tribes or moeties, each with its own chief.) At Grand Pawnee Village, Dodge spoke to the four chiefs and their headmen. He offered to essentially broker a peace between the Pawnee and their old enemies the Cheyenne and Arapaho. Dodge talked about the diestructive effects of further war, and urged the chiefs to cultivate corn and raise cattle, saying "You would be able to support yourselves and your families without depending on the uncertainty of the chase."
Each of the Pawnee chiefs responded to this talk with long-winded, but friendly overtures. Angry Man reportedly stated: "I thank you for treating these people so well; you could not be blamed if you had been more severe."
Discussion: There is no doubt in my mind that Dodge, serving as an agent of the Federal Government from 1834-1835, did everything he could to offer peace and reconciliation between the great warring tribes of the Great Plains. The Cheyenne respected him, as did the Comanche, the Osage, the Kiowa and the Pawnee. Even the Arikara, noted and feared as formidable warriors, held Dodge in respect and embraced peace.
It is not lost on me that on any given day, at any time day or night, any one of these tribes possessed the power and wherewithal to annihiliate Dodge and his Dragoons at will. They didn't... and it wasn't because Dodge possessed overwhelming military might or some bellicose "intimidation" factor. It wasn't because he was-- as you say-- "a 'school yard bully' with heavy handed tatics to obtain the results he wanted in Indian relations."
It was because of the message of peace and future proseperity Dodge carried for two years to the tribes of the West. And by deeds--- brokered peace agreements in both years between long-time warring tribes--- Dodge was seen as a man of principle and viewed with respect and friendship.
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Post by pshrake on Mar 15, 2003 0:14:34 GMT -5
For what its worth, Im going to throw my two cents in. As it has been said, we are plowing over some very old ground here, and like in other threads, I would say that Indian/white relations or for that matter federal Indian policy is just not that simplistic.
I think the overall problem here is that everyone wants to see Dodge and early 19th century Indian policy in terms of simple black and white. So far I have seen the following arguments laid out here: Dodge was either all bad or all good. Jackson was mainly out to crush the Indians. Modern historians can never seem to rise above the political correctness of pro Indian interpretation.
Why cant Dodge have both sets of characteristics, as both Larry and Bob have portrayed him? I know this may seem like I am fence straddling the subject, but it certainly would fit more the personality of many Americans in positions of power both on the national sceen and along the frontier. Jackson himself is a classic example of this double image.
The man presided over a harsh policy of removal. He waged some of the most savage Indian campaigns ever conducted. But, he also took an Indian boy into his home, raised him as a son, and allowed the boy to retain a sense of pride for his Indian heritage. He also established his policy of removal as a humanitarian gesture, founded by the belief that the two cultures could coexist only if they were completely physically separated. Unfortunately it was his obsessive desire for economy and his bending to the political realities of dealing with irate, and uncomprimising southern politicians that the removal policy became the horror that it truly was.
Perhaps Dodge was as contradictory as Jackson and for that matter, nearly every other 19th century politician. Was he hell bent on the destruction of the Indians and harbor great hatred for the tribes he dealt with? Probably not. Was he, however, a politician who catered to the expansionist attitudes of the voters and colleagues? Most likely. Was he a true friend of the Indian who stood up for their rights and never double dealt them? Probably not. Was he a smooth diplomat who accomplished the objectives his superiors gave him? Most likely. Dodge was a man of his time and a person on the make in a frontier community. He was, like many human beings, capable of doing both good and bad.
As for Mike’s comments on the historians of today, I would argue that the works of Ronald Satz and Francis Paul Prucha are first-rate examples of good history. Are they perfect, no, but show me a history book that is. There are bad histories out there, but there are also some very important works that ought to be read on this subject. I very much suggest everyone read, “American Indian Policy in Jacksonian America” by Satz, and Prucha’s, “Great Father” and “American Indian Policy in the Formative Years: The Trade and Intercourse Act of 1802” All three works are, in my opinion, reasonably balanced, views of the realities of Indian/ white relations along the frontier.
Pete Shrake
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Post by Robert Braun on Mar 20, 2003 12:37:51 GMT -5
To return to the original question I believe I have shown that an Oneida Indian in one of Dodge's companies was plausable.
Pete presents several interesting points, many with which I agree. As a man of his times, Dodge certainly was not the Savior of the Red Men. Neither was he the "Great White Satan."
Of course, in a "politically correct world" one of the easiest things in the world to do is demonize based on a simple carrying forward of the prevailing popular thinking.
For example... if academians like Dr. Lucy Eldersveld Murphy would have plowed some of this "old ground", she might have avoided the "old plowed ground" stereotype of Henry Dodge as the "Great White Satan" in her A Gathering of Rivers: Indians, Métis, and Mining in the Western Great Lakes, 1737–1832 . She digs deep into the subjects and people she obviously loves and lionizes, and barely scratches the surface in understanding the subjects and people she loathes.
Mind you... she doesn't know WHY she established Dodge as the perennial "boogyman"... particilarly since others in the Lead Region cut their own deals with native people just as he did. Her text provided no intellectual proofs for her position. She just does it.
And because these prevailing thoughts also permiate the so-called collegiate world, she gets away with it-- simply by saying so.
Using this premise, we have no requirement or duty to outfit our troops in the Gulf with protective masks and chemical suits. Saddam has said he has no weapons of mass destruction. Heck... it must be true! Right?
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