Red Bird... British Sympathizer?

[Larry Koschkee]

Much has been written about Black Hawk's alliance with the British but what do we know of Red Bird being aligned with the British?

I have pondered the following statement by Judge James H. Lockwood of Prairie du Chien for sometime, but have not had a chance to delve into its assertion.

Red Bird, who when dressed, always wore a red coat and called himself English.

We know that the Winnebago were one of the most militant members of Tecumseh's alliance and fought on the side of the British in the War of 1812. Is there evidence that Red Bird was a participant?... Perhaps he fought side by side with Black Hawk...

Comments please.

Larry K.

[pshrake]

I have never seen any evidence to prove that Red Bird actually particiapted in the War of 1812. I have seen several references to the fact that his particular band, the Prairie LaCrosse Band, of HoChunk were sympathetic to Britain. Beyond that, unfortunately, the record seems scarce on Red Bird prior to the events of 1827.

Pete

[gorentz]

I hope it's not inappropriate for a newbie to jump into a year-old thread, but I'm curious about the statement that the Winnebago were militant members of Tecumseh's alliance. Are there information sources about this? I am not knowledgeable about Winnebago history, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about Winnebago people in the British records taken at Fort Malden in the years after the War of 1812. Black Hawk, and other Sauk (and Fox) people are recorded as having made the trip to get presents from their old allies several times up through 1830. But I don't recall ever seeing any representatives of the Winnebago listed. It could be that they went to Drummond Island instead, though.

John Gorentz

[pshrake]

Hi John,
You are not being inappropriate at all!

Concerning Larry's statements regarding the militant nature of the HoChunk he is correct. The tribe was a part of Tecumpsehs confederacy and participated in a number of battles during the war of 1812. In fact, I do believe that they were among the first to attack Harrison's Camp at Tippecanoe in 1811.

Following the War I suspect (I can only suspect because I am writing this from work and my sources are at home) that the HoChunk were like many other tribes of the region and remained loyal, if not friendly, to the British for several years. Quite often leaders of a number of the tribes would travel to Drummond's Island to meet with the British and recieve gifts.

It was only gradually through the treaty process that the U.S. finally secured the alliegence of the tribes. For about 3 years immediately following the conclusion of the war the U.S. negotiated countless "Treaties of Peace and Friendship" with Indian Nations all along its frontier from the Great Lakes on south. These treaties were to establish a formal ending to the hostilities between the U.S. and the various tribes. They were also the first attempt to bring the tribes under the U.S. sphere of influence. More often that not, however, this new alliegence to the U.S. had to be reaffirmed time and again in other treaties over the next few decades.

Perhaps the most important treaty concerning this matter was the Treaty of 1825 at Prairie du Chien, I believe as many as seven different tribes (and probably more) and including the HoChunk were present at those negotiations. Though this treaty was desigened to fix a number of different problems on the frontier, one of its main goals was to finally persuade, for once and for all, the tribes from visiting the British at Drummonds Island.

Pete

[gorentz]

Thanks for the reply, Pete.

If you have your sources handy sometime, I would appreciate being pointed to reading material about:

1) Winnebago people going to Drummond Island, and

2) The role of the Treaty of 1825 in dissuading Indians from going to Canada.

I have been meaning to try to find out what British records there are for Indians that came to Drummond Island in the 1820s. So far I've let myself be pretty much intimidated by the National Archives of Canada, and don't think I could justify a trip to Ottawa to work in them, anyway. But sometimes relevant subsets of the microfilms are available at Fort Malden, which is now a historical park run by Parks Canada, and which is only a 3.5 hour drive for me.

As for the treaty of 1825, I just now re-read it and didn't see anything specifically about Indians going to Canada. But as you imply, these treaty meetings often had agendas that went beyond what was put down on paper. (I'm also good at missings things that are right in front of my eyes.)

If you can recommend reading material on either of these two topics, I'd be grateful.

John Gorentz

[pshrake]

John,

Good questions!

Concerning the Treaty of 1825, you are correct, there is no specific wording mentioning Canada. The effort was more aimed at securing the alliegence of the tribes, once that was assured there would be no need to mention the tribes visits to a specific place. The first sentence of Article 10 of the Treaty states "All the tribes aforesaid acknowledge the general controlling power of the United States, and disclaim all dependance upon, and connection with, and other power." Though they do not mention Britian by name it is pretty clear that there is only one other "power" the tribes may depend upon.
I would also argue that the term dependance would refer to the giving of presents which was done at Fort Malden and Drummonds Island.

Concerning specific references to HoChunk alliegence to the British following the War of 1812, rather there seemed to be a split within the leadership of the tribe especially after the signing of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship of 1816, several prominent leaders, decided that they would honor the agreement of the Treaty. One leader, Rice Eater, was clearly against any new relationship with the U.S. and continued to advocate a continuation of the War. He and other dissaffected leaders of the region's other tribes visited Drummonds Island in the years immediately following the War of 1812.

Four Legs was another leader who still harbored resentment against the Americans and apparently went to Drummonds Island in 1817, 1819, and in 1822. Apparently he was still visiting the British as late as 1828.

The HoChunk continued to worry the likes of Lewis Cass and Thomas McKenney, Cass going as far as to specificaly mention both Drumonds Island and Fort Malden in a message to the HoChunk I believe in 1822.

Perhaps the tribe's general disreguard for American authority is best illustrated in an incident in 1820. Captain Willaim Whistler was taking a detatchment of U.S. Soldiers up the Fox River when he was fired upon by some HoChunk on the shoreline. Pulling over his boat he stormed ashore and demaned why the HoChunk had fired upon the U.S. flag. Wherupon the Indians replied that they controled that strech of the river and the soldiers were requred to pay a toll if they wished to pass.

There are some good references which you might find useful. Mark Diedrich's "HoChunk Chiefs: Winnebago Leadership in an Era of Crisis" is excellent. I always suggest any work by Francis Paul Prucha. Good HoChunk histories can be found in the works of Nancy Ostrich Lurie. The numerous works of Thomas McKenney, the Superintendant of Indian Trade until 1822 and later the Superintendant of Indian Affairs are full of information. McKenney was a on the sceene witness to many incidents in the Great Lakes region. The Bio on McKenney by Herman J. Viola also serves as a good overview of Indian Affairs of this period.

Bad experience with the Canadian Archives Eh... I cannot speak on them but I can sympathise. The U.S. National Archives can sometimes give one a nasty headache.

Pete

[gorentz]

Pete,

Thanks for all the information.

I've just now put in requests for library loans of Diedrich, Lurie, and Viola. I've read some work by Prucha, but far from everything. I have a couple of McKenney volumes on my bookshelf. I've just never paid attention to anything he might have had to say about Ho-Chunk Indians. Until now I've been concentrating mostly on Sauk, Mesquakie, Potawatomi, Miami, Odawa, and (more recently) Ojibwe. And it's been mostly Potawatomi people that I've tried to learn about, despite the fact that my project is about Black Hawk.

Say, are you a Minnesota Twins fan? The Viola should be Herman. Whatever did happen to Frank, anyway?

That story about toll collectors may be useful to me. I've been collecting similar stories from Michigan history. This will be good for comparison.

I've also been collecting information on Lewis Cass's continual work to keep Indians from going to Canada, and his continual harrangues to the War Department on the subject. What I have so far is mostly about Michigan Indians and about Sauk people.

BTW, I visited Drummond Island a couple of years ago (not by bicycle that time). What's left of the fort site is private property. The property owner used to let people go walking there, but had recently had a bad experience with it and I was told had pretty much soured on the idea. I was told by a local history person on the island that if I explained my interest and explained exactly what I was doing, she'd probably make an exception and let me look around and take photos. My wife and I were just there for a relaxing anniversary vacation, so I thought maybe I'd let her cool off and would contact her by e-mail and go back another time. I haven't done it yet. It would make a good bicycle trip.

John Gorentz

[Larry Koschkee]

John,

The reading material suggested by Mr. Pete Shrake are all excellent reads, however it maybe helpful to pickup a copy of Paul A. Radin's book The Winnebago Tribe to get a glimpse of the culture and traditions of the Winnebago. Radin's work was originally published as part of the 37th Annual Report by the Bureau of American Ethnology, Smithsonian Institute... I believe dated 1923. Several reprints were issued by the University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, Nebraska. My print is dated 1970.

If nothing else, I believe you will be amazed how fractured or loose the structure of the tribe was, yet survived for centuries.

Best regards,

Larry K

[Chris]

I also believe Diedrich's book contains a chapter on Whirling Thunder, with a substantial bibliography.

[gorentz]

pshrake wrote: "The Bio on McKenney by Herman J. Viola also serves as a good overview of Indian Affairs of this period."

I just finished reading this. Many thanks for recommending it. It was very useful. It had much good information for me, even if it didn't help with any of the questions that prompted my query.

What a smarmy character McKenney was! I had not got that picture of him from anything else I had read about him. Now that I've read this, I've started to go back and look at the other books where he has been talked about to compare.

Does anyone here know exactly where the meetings at Fond du Lac (in 1826) and Butte des Morts took place, in terms that I can use to go to the exact locations by bicycle? I've googled a bit for Fond du Lac, haven't yet done so for Butte des Morts. I rode my bike to the general area of Butte des Morts several years ago, before I knew any of this history. Is the Fond du Lac location near Floodwood, MN? Or is it nearer to Duluth?

I've also started to read the Lurie book about "Wisconsin Indians." It's very good, too. I haven't gotten very deep into the Diedrich book yet.

Thanks again, everyone.

John Gorentz

[gorentz]

I wrote:

"BTW, I visited Drummond Island a couple of years ago (not by bicycle that time). What's left of the fort site is private property. The property owner used to let people go walking there, but had recently had a bad experience with it and I was told had pretty much soured on the idea. I was told by a local history person on the island that if I explained my interest and explained exactly what I was doing, she'd probably make an exception and let me look around and take photos. My wife and I were just there for a relaxing anniversary vacation, so I thought maybe I'd let her cool off and would contact her by e-mail and go back another time. I haven't done it yet. It would make a good bicycle trip."

Well, later this week I'm taking off by bicycle for Drummond Island to see one of Black Hawk's old destinations. My wife and I will be going to a history conference along the way. I've talked to the property owner (and in fact we will be staying at her B&B). She does NOT want me taking photos, but will give me a tour. Actually, I've come to think that her concerns are reasonable, especially as far as publication is concerned, and are not that different from what I've run into in a few of my other "Black Hawk Slept Here" sites in Michigan and Indiana.

Usually when I cross one of Black Hawk's old trails, I would tell any kids in my car to look and see if there's anything Black Hawk dropped. In the case of Fort Drummond, one of the concerns is artifact hunters, so I am NOT going to look for anything he may have dropped.

John Gorentz