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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 26, 2003 12:50:45 GMT -5
I have enjoyed the posts on all subjects with regards to this board. I have found posts, responses, and rebuttals to be to be consistantly well thought out and well put. As a "Lurker" I read the board at least once a week. I felt compelled to throw in my thoughts of Henry Dodge. I think that the Native Americans opinion of Dodge was neither a perception of cruelty or benevolence. I believe they respected the man because he was a straight shooter. He said what he meant and meant what he said. That respect was based on fear of the big stick. Which I think the Native Americans knew he would, and could bring to bear. I further think the man would have no reservations about having an Oneida or any other Native American associated with his troops. I think he was savvy enough to make that a comfortable choice. Just some quick thoughts. This a great forum gentlemen. Welcome to the forum, and please feel free to join in at any time. Please make sure to include your REAL name in any posts as in the past, anonymous posts have caused problems. Let me know if you have any questions.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 10, 2003 13:32:04 GMT -5
I suggest you read Dodge's quotes but imagine that instead of fighting Black Hawk, Dodge was fighting the Confederates in the Civil War. Dodge is interested in defeating the enemy and I don't think there's really much more to it.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 10, 2003 13:28:50 GMT -5
Larry I think you are confusing Dodge's ambitious and forceful nature and his desire to "exterminate" or "punish" or "defeat", "Kill" the FOE with a desire to do those things to all Native Americans, be they under arms and in conflict with white Americans or just following the laws of the U.S. and trying to co-exist. Just because he wanted to kill the Sac (meaning those in rebellion - did he propose to launch an attack on ALL Sac?) does not mean he was in favor of Native American extermination. Some, many, were undoubtedly in favor of exactly that and I'm not going to say that Dodge did not harbor a hostile attitude towards Native Americans in general.
This comes down to the crux of the argument and why it is almost impossible to talk about this subject because I think that most historians dealing in this subject can't shake themselves out of their biased "Pro-Native American" viewpoint for the simple reason that "they were here first, it was their land, it wasn't fair" mindset. You may be surprised to hear that I agree with that very mindset myself.
But, I can seperate that basic belief from trying to objectively look at what happened and why. Because if one doesn't, they naturally fall into the "evil white guy , noble Indian" mindset. The same thing happens in Civil War studies, especially from the neo-Confederates who refuse to objectively analyze the history of the war and what led to the war.
One could probably find plenty of genocidal, crazed white people and pure, noble unflawed Native Americans when studying the American / Indian conflicts - but I dont think this is the case when looking at Dodge and Black Hawk.
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Post by Mike Thorson on May 1, 2002 11:16:47 GMT -5
Michigan [Territory] Mounted Volunteers of the Black Hawk War.
Colonel Henry Dodge- Colonel, Commanding Michigan Mounted Volunteers.
James W. Stephenson - (Illinois Mounted Militia) - Major Charles Bracken - Lieutenant and Adjutant William W. Woodbridge - Lieutenant and Adjutant George Wallace Jones - Aide de Camp Dr. Addison Philleo - Surgeon John Bivens - Surgeons Mate James P. Cox - Sergeant-Major
Captain Joseph Dickson, Spy Company (Fort Dodge, Platteville, Michigan Territory)
Captain Daniel M Parkinson's Company (Fort Defiance, near Mineral Point, Michigan Territory)
Captain James H. Gentry's Company (Fort Jackson, Mineral Point, Michigan Territory) Henry L. Dodge - First Lieuenant Paschal Bequette - 2nd Lieutenant
Captain Benjamin W. Clark's Company (Fort Clark, White Oak Springs, Michigan Territory)
Captain Hosea T. Camp's Company (Galena, Illinois)
Captain James Jones' Company (Fort Jones, Blue River, Illinois)
Pierre Pauquette, pilot and interpreter (departed after battle at Wisconsin Heights.)
Winnebago Indians, including White Pawnee and the son of White Crow. Twelve total. (Departed after battle at Wisconsin heights.)
Captain William S. Hamilton, Commander of Michigan Territory Militia and Indians -- Sioux, Menomonie, and Winnebago. (Fort Hamilton, Hamilton's Diggigns, Iowa County, Michigan Territory)
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Post by Mike Thorson on May 1, 2002 11:21:53 GMT -5
Michigan [Territory] Mounted Volunteers of the Black Hawk War Captain John Sherman's Company of Iowa [County] Militia Stationed at Blue Mounds Fort under Command of Col. Dodge
"Muster Roll of Captain John Sherman's Company of Iowa [County] Militia Stationed at Blue Mounds Fort under Command of Col. Dodge called into service of the United States on the requisition of Gen. Henry Atkinson, May 20th 1832."
1. John Sherman Captain May 20 1. George Force* 1st Lieut. May 20 1. R. E. Collins 2d Lieut. May 20 1. W. H. Haughton First Sergt. May 20 2. Henry Starr 2d Sergt. May 20 3. Moses Collins 3rd Sergt. May 20 4. A. G. Haughton 4th Sergt. May 20 1. Esau Johnson 1st Corpl. May 20 2. R. S. Lewis 2d Corpl. May 20 3. Daniel Evans 3d Corpl. May 20 4. Jacob Keith 4th Corpl. May 20 1. Ebenezer Brigham Commissary May 20 1. W. G. Aubry** Private May 20 2. Harvey Brock Private May 20 3. Hugh Bowan Private May 20 4. Robert Creighton Private May 20 5. Samuel David Private May 20 6. John Dannels Private May 20 7. John Dalby Private May 20 8. Moses Forman Private May 20 9. Anson Grazier Private May 20 10. Jonathan Ferril Private May 20 11. James Fiddick Private May 20 12. Emerson Green Private May 20 13. James Hanlon*** Private May 20 14. Charels Harris Private May 20 15. J. C. Kellog Private May 20 16. French Lake Private May 20 17. Jeremiah Lycan Private May 20 18. John Messersmith**** Private May 20 19. George Messersmith Private May 20 20. William Messersmith Private May 20 21. Thomas McCraney Private May 20 22. Fernando McCraney Private May 20 23. Jason Putnam Private May 20 24. James Prideaux Private May 20 25. Jefferson Smith Private May 20 26. Alpha Stevens Private May 20 27. William Stoney Private May 20 28. Thomas Wilson Private May 20 29. Samuel Woodworth Private May 20
Notes: *Lieutenant Force was killed by and Indian war party on June 20, 1832 some three miles from Fort Blue Mounds. **Private Aubry was killed by and Indian war party on June 6, 1832 about one mile from Fort Blue Mounds. ***Private Hanlon was killed by and Indian war-party on June 20, 1832 some three miles from Fort Blue Mounds. ****Private John Messersmith was a veteran of the Battle of Pecatonica, and in mid June, 1832 may have accompanied Colonel Henry Dodge from Fort Blue Mounds to Fort Hamilton, and on to the Pecatonica River.
Captain Sherman's Company was mustered out of service on August 20, 1832 by Lieutenant William W. Woodbridge, Adjutant and Inspector of the Iowa County Militia.
Source: In the Ebenezer Brigham Papers, SW Wisconsin Room, Karrmann Library, UW-Wisconsin Platteville. Courtesy Mr. Robert Birmingham, Archaeologist, State Hisotrical Society of Wisconsin.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Jul 29, 2002 13:44:51 GMT -5
Any and all "lurkers" out there are encouraged to jump into this discussion if you want to. If you hesitate to register and participate because of the request that you use your real name you can register without doing so and I'll consider letting you use an anonymous name - BUT indescriminate bomb-throwing and obvious flame baiting will not be tolerated and you will be banned from the board if that happens.
But, I encourage you to go ahead and register with your real name. We won't bite, the water's fine.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Jul 28, 2002 18:53:22 GMT -5
Hmm, well the "Discussion" I thought was to try to answer "Why do think Dodge and Henry were not brought up on charges?" and I think that there were some well thought out responses as to why they weren't. This board may be the only place on the planet where a discussion of the Black Hawk War does not automatically fall into the same, tired old rut of "Black Hawk was great, Dodge was a greedy murderer", or something along those lines. Just becasue there are a few people who, after looking at the conflict in an unbiased way, conclude that Dodge wasn't a monster, and that Black Hawk wasn't perfect, doesn't mean they worship at the feet of an Injun Killer.
Bob gave a well thought out answer, which you acknowledged as such. But, then your question turned to "Why did Dodge do it?" to which you answered that it was due to a character flaw. Then the discussion turned to a response to that. So don't claim now that the discussion turned somewhere you didn't want it to, when you turned it that way on your own.
ALL opinions ARE welcome here.
I closed this thread earlier but it's now open again for discussion. Bombs away.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Jul 26, 2002 7:44:33 GMT -5
All military actions involve luck - both good and bad. Aside from his adjutants discovering Black Hawk's trail I don't see any other incidents of good luck for Dodge. What i see is initiative and determination. That's how they caught up to Black Hawk before he could get everyone over the river and that's how he crushed the Kickapoo party at Pecatonica.
In peacetime Dodge's insubordination would have gotten him into trouble. Also, if Dodge would have been defeated by Black Hawk, his insubordination would have also been trouble for him. Military history is replete with maverick officers defying orders, taking initiative and winning the day. No General above them would dare bring them up on insubordination charges. I disagree that this was a Dodge "character flaw", I think it is quite the opposite.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Dec 16, 2003 9:38:38 GMT -5
From the official thread police.... The "direction" of the thread appears fine. Discussions go places. Don't worry about it people. We don't want to discourage anyone from getting into the discussion.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Nov 3, 2003 10:22:01 GMT -5
I for one, would like to see a re-post of your talking point bullets. They were interesting and well done... no matter if the subject was covered elsewhere. You were making a case and your arguements were approriate for the thread. Bob, I believe it was you that stated there was nothing wrong with going over "plowed ground" from time to time and I agree. The best to you... Larry Koschkee I agree - don't worry about "repeating yourself" when making a point relating to the topic. So to reiterate it's ok to repeat yourself. Finally it's fine to make your identical point in different places...... sometimes I think I'm funny.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 27, 2002 15:33:14 GMT -5
When reading through the rosters of the Illinois Militia I noticed that some soldiers were designated as "Color Bearer" or "Color Sergeant". Does anyone know of any documentation of flags OR if any still exist??
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Post by Mike Thorson on Dec 10, 2002 11:53:02 GMT -5
I know all the rosters have been located and copied by someone at the WSH but I think it was done privately, and the person who did it isn't interested in sharing the info. So, a trip to the Nat archives is probably necessary. With all of the interest surrounding it, and the relatively small number of Michigan Militia, you'd think the WSH would have copies of them in their own archives, available for everyone to see.
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Post by Mike Thorson on Jul 19, 2004 12:01:15 GMT -5
Careful Cliff, you might be getting a letter from the McBarron estate lawyers - like I did when I posted this on the old Black Hawk War website (yes, I gave full credit) .
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 28, 2002 9:15:19 GMT -5
Gene,
Thanks for the information. It's interesting that you say they have flags back to 1812 - that's encouraging. Who knows where the "Dodge Flag" might be if it even exists (which it probably doesn't). Not in Wisconsin, maybe Iowa. A comprehensive study of the flags of the Black Hawk War (including Regular Army) would be an[glow=blue,2,300]interesting[/glow]piece!
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Post by Mike Thorson on Mar 27, 2002 15:33:58 GMT -5
When reading through the rosters of the Illinois Militia I noticed that some soldiers were designated as "Color Bearer" or "Color Sergeant". Does anyone know of any documentation of flags OR if any still exist??
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