Outrage?

[Robert Braun]

I've held off as long as I could. Now I can't hold off any longer...

Let me see if I have this right:

• Captured American soldiers executed and mutilated by Iraqis = no outrage.
  
  
• Wall Street Journal journalist executed on tape by terrorists = no outrage.
  
  
• Several American contractors are blown up, mutilated, burned, and dragged through the streets of Fallujha = no outrage.
  
  
• American soldiers abuse some prisoners/detainees in Iraq, allegedly sadistically and with one alleged instance of sodomy = OUTRAGE!
  
  
• Terroists seize unarmed American contractor Nick Berg, and behead him, allegdly at the behest of known terrorist Al Zarqawi = no outrage.
  
  Hmmmm........

[Chris]

I was just thinking about the pattern of retaliation and revenge in the present-day situation, and how analogous it is to Indian-white conflict in the past (and present).

Can't it be boiled down to human nature? Arab/Muslim atrocities do not justify American atrocities, neither do American atrocities justify Arab/Muslim atrocities. Is anyone going to rise above the cycle and say enough is enough?

And, anyone knowing my biography would understand that I have plenty of reasons to be hostile. I am not speaking from naive idealism.

[Robert Braun]

Chris said:

I was just thinking about the pattern of retaliation and revenge in the present-day situation, and how analogous it is to Indian-white conflict in the past (and present).

Can't it be boiled down to human nature? Arab/Muslim atrocities do not justify American atrocities, neither do American atrocities justify Arab/Muslim atrocities. Is anyone going to rise above the cycle and say enough is enough?

I think the present-day situation defies an ample historical comparison. While the activities in the prison in Iraq are deplorable, reprehensible, and demands the few perpetrators be brought to justice... are you saying that these activities rise to the level of an "atrocity?"

So... for arguement's sake, how would would one rise above the cycle and say "enough is enough?"

I am most curious...



Bob.

[Chris]

deplorable, reprehensible, and demands the few (?) perpetrators be brought to justice

I pretty well think that defines an atrocity and an outrage. Need I remind you of what happened to Keokuk's people? When there is no effective legal system, no equitable and timely justice, things degenerate into revenge and retaliation.

Atrocity is an emotion-laden word, defined by the user of that word from his/her context. The whole war is an atrocity that should never happened.

Turn the whole mess over to the UN.
US never belonged in Iraq in the first place.
All we were doing was protecting our oil interests, when we should have been developing other sources of energy.
Of course, oilerBush is economically unable to admit that.
The primary problem with so many Americans is an inability to admit that they(we) are wrong about something.
It is time to admit that US has too many problems to be meddling in the affairs of other countries. Now, what is the role of the United Nations?
Did you hear that the judge in the Kansas school finance case ordered the schools shut down the end of June if the legislature doesn't figure a way of equitably financing education?
Of course not---- war news has center stage.

[Robert Braun]

Chris said:

I pretty well think that defines an atrocity and an outrage. Need I remind you of what happened to Keokuk's people? When there is no effective legal system, no equitable and timely justice, things degenerate into revenge and retaliation.

Atrocity is an emotion-laden word, defined by the user of that word from his/her context. The whole war is an atrocity that should never happened.

Turn the whole mess over to the UN.
US never belonged in Iraq in the first place.
All we were doing was protecting our oil interests, when we should have been developing other sources of energy.
Of course, oilerBush is economically unable to admit that.
The primary problem with so many Americans is an inability to admit that they(we) are wrong about something.
It is time to admit that US has too many problems to be meddling in the affairs of other countries. Now, what is the role of the United Nations?
Did you hear that the judge in the Kansas school finance case ordered the schools shut down the end of June if the legislature doesn't figure a way of equitably financing education?
Of course not---- war news has center stage.

Good try Chris... but there is simply no historical equivalent to the present world situation. None. September 11 2001 changed everything... and freedom in America and in the world is meaningless without security.

Turn it all over to the UN? Don't even go there. A so-called "world body" so impotent is couldn't enforce even ONE of its many resolutions against Saddams' regieme? A world body so out of touch that it puts SUDAN on its committe on Human Rights? An organization so rife with corruption that its "oil for food" program channelled millions into Saddam's personal pocket-- a condition which accelerated widespread hunger and a lack of adequate medical care in Iraq (which, in turn, the "We Hate America First" crowd immediately blamed on the American embargo?) The U. N. has been impotent for the last quarter century and remains so today.

The bottom line in my original post is the clear "selective outrage" in the path of recent history. Our enemies howl at the disgusting images coming from that Iraq prison, yet are silent on far greater and (in fact) TRUE atrocities... multiple atrocities... particularly when they sink to the level of being committed against unarmed and innocent civilians picked at random.

Bob.

[Mike Thorson]

If we can all be treated non stop to photos of some naked men with US soldiers pointing at them then we should all be bombarded with the video of these terrorists slowly SAWING and HACKING Nick Berg's head off, while he is screaming and gurgling.

www.dreamscapesoftheperverse.com/iraq.htm

If you have the guts, watch the video then look at the photos. Then tell me it's the same thing.

[Chris]

;D

but there is simply no historical equivalent to the present world situation. None.

No equivalent, but many parallels. 9-11 does not share similarities with Pearl Harbor? Attacking one tribe for the misbehavior of another tribe shares no similarities with attacking Iraq because the war in Afghanistan did not result in Osama bin Laden's body?

I am perfectly aware that the breakdown of the legal process through the UN contributed greatly to the war.

When there is no effective legal system, no equitable and timely justice, things degenerate into revenge and retaliation.

Now the UN needs to take responsibility for its errors and past ineffective behavior.

I don't think that there is any "selective" outrage or neglect of the issues involved with Mr. Berg's death. It generally takes a while for such events to generate reaction.

And why people of Mr. Berg's personality type are targeted for reprehensible acts of revenge is far beyond my comprehension, but an issue with which I intensely identify.

The US is in this situation because of oil hunger. What happened to the tribes in Oklahoma in the 1920's and '30's when oil was discovered? Oh my!! We have another parallel.

And the answer to oil hunger is alternative forms of energy, can you agree to this?

[Robert Braun]

There is so much here that I'm going to have to break this down item by item. Here goes:


1. No equivalent, but many parallels. 9-11 does not share similarities with Pearl Harbor?

Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack conducted by the Japanese MILITARY against largely American MILITARY targets for the express purpose of eliminating or breaking American MILITARY presence in the Pacific.

9/11 consisted of a group of terrorists who lived the good life in America for one purpose-- to fly OUR civilian planes loaded with aviation fuel and plenty of CIVLIAN commerial air travelers into CIVILIAN targets (like the World Trade Center) and oh... yes... the Pentagon. Extrapolations of the flight that went down in Penna. was that the flight path put it on line with either the capitol or the White House.

In my view, the two episodes are comparible only in that they were both a vast surprise to America and an act of war. The vast difference between the two remains that 9/11 was simply murder.

2. Attacking one tribe for the misbehavior of another tribe shares no similarities with attacking Iraq because the war in Afghanistan did not result in Osama bin Laden's body?

Please. Afghanistan was a terrorist haven and so was Iraq. There is no debate that Saddam's regieme actively provided funding to terrorist organizations like Hezzbola and Hamas. A terrorist training camp was found in northern Iraq within days of our airborne landings there. Recent reports confirm that one of Mr Ata's associated met with Iraqi state representatives in Germany a year before 9/11. And who do you think beheaded Mr. Berg--- in Iraq?

The policy of the current Administration is "preemption"-- to hunt the terrorists down before they attack us or anyone else again. Perhaps you would prefer to wait for the next hijacked jetliner loaded with our own innocents to crash into another American landmark, or have our water supplies poisoned, or our electrical grids disrupted... or whatever. I would prefer not to wait, and further prefer hunting down our enemies on their own ground.

3. I am perfectly aware that the breakdown of the legal process through the UN contributed greatly to the war. Now the UN needs to take responsibility for its errors and past ineffective behavior.

Chris... there is no legal breakdown in the UN because they haven't had one for more than two decade. It is not a question of "legal process" because failure to enforce ones' own edicts means you have no edicts. Saddam learned this a long time ago... which is why he thumbed his nose at them time and time again.

Do you really believe the UN is going to put on the breaks and fix itself? Why? What could possibly be the motivation for an organization like the UN to reform itself? It has no motivation, and numerous countires around the world actually benefit from a nice, safe, mouthy paper tiger like the UN. The "oil for food" scandal is but one proof of my point.

4. I don't think that there is any "selective" outrage or neglect of the issues involved with Mr. Berg's death. It generally takes a while for such events to generate reaction.

At last we agree. You are right. There IS NO "selective outrage" regarding Mr Berg's death because outside of America and our allies there is NO outrage. Period.

5. And why people of Mr. Berg's personality type are targeted for reprehensible acts of revenge is far beyond my comprehension, but an issue with which I intensely identify.

Chris... (and I ask this with all humility)... what possible relevance does Mr. Berg's personality type have to do with his awful murder at the hands of terrorists? He was murdered because he was an American and that's all!

6. The US is in this situation because of oil hunger. What happened to the tribes in Oklahoma in the 1920's and '30's when oil was discovered? Oh my!! We have another parallel.

No. We are in Afghanistan and Iraq because these nations were lead by rogue governments that offered aid and comfort to terrorists--- some of whom murdered Americans and other freedom loving peoples around the world. Please--- the "Hate America First" crowd claimed the LAST war with Iraq was all about oil... which is wasn't. That arguement holds no water this time, either.

7. And the answer to oil hunger is alternative forms of energy, can you agree to this?

Your question is like asking me "Aren't you against teen smoking?"

Everyone agrees that alternative energy sources allow America to be less dependant on foreign oil. The problem is-- this is only PART of the solution. We also need to add capacity from our own resources. But we can't do that because the Sierra Club would scream that twelve caribou in Alaska might have to munch the tundra one-quarter mile further away from where they're munching it today. SO THEN the arguement becomes circular.

Wait! Gas prices here in Fort Atkinson just hit $1.99! If our war in Iraq is ACTUALLY all about oil... where is it?

Still waiting for the outrage,

Bob.

[Chris]

;D Agree to disagree.

1. I see similarities, you see differences.

2. Agreed, however, I believe that the connection is more tenuous than you present it to be.

3.

What could possibly be the motivation for an organization like the UN to reform itself? It has no motivation, and numerous countries around the world actually benefit from a nice, safe, mouthy paper tiger

UN was originally set up to prevent WWIII. The possibility still exists, even though the alignments have changed. That is a POWERFUL motivation.

5. He was an American whose reason for being in Iraq had more to do with repairing the infrastructure damaged by the war. And you are right. It is obvious that he was senselessly murdered because he was

an American and that's all!

. And, therefore, any moderate Iraquis, I'm sure, are quite reasonably appalled by this senseless act of retaliation.

Chris Baker (fer real ;D)

[Mike Thorson]

Just a quick note Chris - per the rules of the board you need to sign your posts with your first and last name - thanks very much - or have it appear in your screen name.

[Mike Thorson]

[quote author=Chris
5. He was an American whose reason for being in Iraq had more to do with repairing the infrastructure damaged by the war.[/quote]

Chris, the infrastructure of Iraq was in bad condition for one reason - Saddam Hussein.

For a view of an Iraqi that the media doesn't want to touch you should read this blog (others are linked from there too)done by an Iraqi - his post about the Iraqi army is particularly interesting. Don't be thrown by his sarcasm.

iraqthemodel.blogspot.com

[Robert Braun]

Actually, I don't agree to disagree with you, because I don't think you present adequeate reasons or proofs to support your arguements, statements, and contentions.

Regarding your comment: UN was originally set up to prevent WWIII. The possibility still exists, even though the alignments have changed. That is a POWERFUL motivation.

Umm... Chris.... in case you haven't noticed-- we ARE now engaged in World War Three!

The nations are different, the borders more hazy, and the enemy wears the clothing of innocent people, but the fact remains.

Using your statement, the UN's policies of failing to enforce its own edicts and its failure to confront global terrorism-- instead opting for the "Blame America First" policy that enshires Mr. Anin's entire repertoire-- has contributed to this condition. In this major respect-- preventing or containing the spread of global terrrorism, which we all agree is the single greatest threat to the security of a free world-- your UN is a dismal failure.

Finally, you stated ... And, therefore, any moderate Iraquis, I'm sure, are quite reasonably appalled by this senseless act of retaliation.

I truly wish I had your clairvoyance. We'll see.

Regards,

Bob.

[Chris]

My optimism and trust have led me astray before.

Solar and wind and biomass energy. Alaska does have a delicate ecology. That won't last forever. Oklahoma's oil didn't last, either------

[Robert Braun]

Chris... you were right!

Reuters news service is reporting that the terrorist organization Hizbollah has condemned the recent beheading of Nick Berg by al Qaeda terrorists.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group condemned Wednesday the beheading of an American hostage by Iraqi militants as an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam.

"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.

An Islamist Web site Tuesday carried a video clip of the execution of the man who identified himself as Nick Berg, with a statement saying a group linked to al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by U.S. troops.

Sooooo..... according the Hizbullah, blowing yourself up with explosives loaded with nails and rusted betal bits in crowded streets or on buses is NOT "an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam" but slowly sawing the head off of an American civilian and then posting the video on a terrorist website IS "an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam."

Now THAT'S outrage!

Regards,

Bob

[Chris]

Hizbollah is not exactly what I had in mind when I said "moderate". I see that all Muslim analysts say that they made the situation worse. Should make it very easy to find them and get justice moving.

Remember that Nick Berg was a martyr (although I don't know what his particular religious beliefs are). Then you will understand the mentality of the suicide bombers better. I agree that they are a perversion of what martyrdom means to me.