Maxim Alamo Review

[Robert Braun]

adjutant7inf said:

Before I answer, a statement of sorts. My comments on the recent film are not criticisms on Hardin, Huffiness or Frank Thompson.


It is 800 yards from the Alamo to the San Fernando Church (the center of San Antonio). The river comes much closure (about two city blocks from where the West Wall would be) and "La Villita" is about two long blocks to the south. You had some small homes pretty close to the Alamo as well. I thought the Bejar set was pretty cool, except it just didn't look lived in, but had real problems with the "most accurate Alamo" ever built (church flush with long barracks, shortened compound, werid looking low barracks). If you could combine Alamo Village's Alamo set with the FlopaMoe's
Bejar, you would have a cool set.

In 1984, when they were extending the riverwalk up to Alamo Plaza, I was standing in front of the Moe (Alamo)
when the construction crew tore down the last building in the projects way. When the dust cleared, you could actually see the south tower of San Fernando. It was pretty cool to kind of have the same view that the defenders had for a brief while (the Hyatt Hotel now blocks it).

Yes--Santa Anna should been wearing some civilan clothing. Of course, he also should have been much younger! I also thought the Tejano clothing was interesting--Berlandier, who went through San Antonio in 1828 on a Mexican boundary survey, noted that the folks in San Antonio (like the Seguin's. Navarro's and such) dressed like they were in New Orleans. And I agree on the Texian clothing--more like they were casting "A Christmas Carol" than a garrison who was made up of lots of Southerners. And what was the deal with Crockett never wearing a hat in the cold winter of 1836?

You may be interested to know that Disney filmed a ton of interviews after the movie to make a second disk for the DVD release. Lots of folks who were not on the Disney payroll were interviewed, including myself. When the film died at the box office, they apparently scrapped the plans to do the extend DVD and instead used stuff from their own crew. Funny, but one of the things I was asked to do was describe what it was like for a Mexican soldier to be in the final battle, which I did based on the primary accounts. When I saw the film for the first (and only) time, I remarked to my wife, "Oh great, the battle in the film (as edited) does not match anything I said!"

The owners of the various "original" Bowie knives have gone to war with each other in years past. At a Texas Collectors Gun Show, two of them tried to have each other banned for showing a "fake" knife. Jack Davis actually got threatened with a lawsuit over the mention of the "laying hands on documentation" in his book.

I got a kick out of the Crockett vest and the film's PR about how Billy Bob was going to be wearing a copy of the actual vest--my problem was if Crockett had the vest at the Alamo, then it would not be around today. It is kind of like the Darst knife--if he had it at the Alamo, then...

I had a young serviceman (a Mr. Know It All) come in one day and tell me that the Brown Bess we had on display was not what the Mexican Army used. He had an "original" that he won in a poker game that was used at the Alamo (more pieces of the true cross). After trying to explain what weapons the Mexican Army used, I finally asked him if it had any ID on it. He said yes, the name of the regiment (which should be battalion) was burned into the stock, and that it had a flip open breach. I asked the name on the stock and he said "Batjac"--the name of John Wayne's production company who made The Alamo in 1960 (so it was a trap door Springfield made into a fake flintlock).

Good observations and comments.

I don't think anyone on the board would misconstrue comments made by you on a movie as being critical of the production's advisors or contributors.

It was clear from the "Special Features" section of the Flopamoe DVD that the director had at his command an impressive array of historical advisors, whom I am confident informed the director of the known facts. Someone, somewhere made the decision to occasionally diverge from these facts for whatever reason(s). And... it was also clear that a few of the film's advisors didn't know what they were talking about!

I actually would have prefferred to hear from non-Mirimax extras that worked on the film. They normally have little if any agenda, and in my experience have a different focus and perspective than the "professionals."

My personal distaste for ol' Billy Bob aside, his very credible performance as Crockett was slightly marred by the fact that he never slept, never ate, rarely aimed his rifle, and wore a hat or cap in but two scenes. No fur cap for Crockett? It must've crawled away. Sorry!

Thanks so very much for the infomation regarding distances. How far from the movie set San Fernando Church to the movie set mission? (I'm not being critical here, just trying to get a perspactive for the distances shown in the film.)

Would you recommend Jack Davis' Three Roads... book? I have generally avoided his Civil War writings, but am interested in your take on his work regarding Texas' "holy trinity."

Thanks... and happy New Year!

Bob.

[adjutant7inf]

I have not been to the Flopamoe film site. So, I can't tell you what their distancing is. Of course of film, distance looks greater than it really is. If you can get your hands on a book called, "The Seth Eastman Stetchbook" you can get some period views of Bejar from different points including from the Alamo,"Bollart's Texas" has some more and Illinois' own Edward Everett did a view from the back of the church looking toward town. All of these are in George Nelson's "The Alamo--An Illustrated History" (which I would recommend).

The Alamo set at Dripping Springs looks very compact in the film, particularly since they moved the church up flush with the convento (long barracks).

I liked Jack Davis book. Now, I will warn you, I was one of the readers on it, but I still think it is the best current history of the Alamo and the big three (Travis, Bowie, and Crockett).

On a side note, my wife and I spent some time in Galena over Christmas. We loved the area. We also stopped by Apple River Fort (it was closed, but we did take a look around) and even went out to Kellogg's Grove. Would love to do some living history up there, so can you keep us in mind for future events?

[Robert Braun]

Kevin... next time you're in the area give a shout! We've enjoyed taking folks on my day-long "Battles and Bastions" tour of Black Hawk War skirmish and fort/stockade sites here in Wisconsin.

The Old Lead Region Historical Society would be thrilled to have you and your spouse join us for some outstanding LH at Apple River Fort, Lincoln's New Salem, and plenty of other sites and events!

Kind regards, Bob

[adjutant7inf]

We both look forward to it!

[James1836]

In February 2004, at a Houston Gun Collectors Show at the Astrodome Complex, an India Pattern Brown Bess Musket 1809c was acquired by a non-profit Texas Corporation called Freedom Documents Fund, Inc.. This Musket has the initials of "JL" on the left handside of the wood stock above the trigger. The hand engraved initials have been matched to the signatures of an early Republic of Texas citizen named James Lathem. Lathem was a contract freight hauler for the first Arsenal of the Republic at West Bernard Station near present day Wharton, Texas. He hauled, over a period of fourteen months ending in 1840, most of the weapons recovered from the Battle of San Jacinto that had been placed at West Bernard Arsenal to the new Houston Arsenal. Since the Matamoros and Toluca Battalions were present in the assault of the Alamo and at the Battle of San Jacinto, it is possible this Musket was in both Battles. Information and photographs of this Musket will soon be placed on Web site: www.freedomdocuments.com and a tour of major Museums in the State of Texas will begin in the near future. No other complete fire arm from the Mexican Army that entered Texas in 1836 has been identified.

[Robert Braun]

James1836 said:

In February 2004, at a Houston Gun Collectors Show at the Astrodome Complex, an India Pattern Brown Bess Musket 1809c was acquired by a non-profit Texas Corporation called Freedom Documents Fund, Inc.. This Musket has the initials of "JL" on the left handside of the wood stock above the trigger. The hand engraved initials have been matched to the signatures of an early Republic of Texas citizen named James Lathem. Lathem was a contract freight hauler for the first Arsenal of the Republic at West Bernard Station near present day Wharton, Texas. He hauled, over a period of fourteen months ending in 1840, most of the weapons recovered from the Battle of San Jacinto that had been placed at West Bernard Arsenal to the new Houston Arsenal. Since the Matamoros and Toluca Battalions were present in the assault of the Alamo and at the Battle of San Jacinto, it is possible this Musket was in both Battles. Information and photographs of this Musket will soon be placed on Web site: www.freedomdocuments.com and a tour of major Museums in the State of Texas will begin in the near future. No other complete fire arm from the Mexican Army that entered Texas in 1836 has been identified.

Hello James, and welcome to the Black Hawk War discussion board. We're glad you're here!

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Regarding the India Pattern Musket... are there any other identifying marks, stampings, cartouches, etc. that would indicate Mexican Army provenance?

Regards,

Bob Braun
Moderator.

[James1836]

To: Bob Braun The India Pattern Brown Bess Musket "JL" has the initials of "JL" on the stock and has no other Mexican marks on the barrel of stock. All of the stamping are correct to an ordinance British Musket with the Crown and GR with proof marks on the lock and the barrel. The ring style cock and the GR Markings place the manufacture period from 1809 to 1820. This was part of the surplus sold to Mexico through independent arms brokers in England. The head curator at the Tower Armoury has looked at the photographs of the Musket and has stated that the initials are not British. Dr. Bruce Winders, Head Curator and Historian at the Alamo, has personally examined the weapon and it was his suggestion to research the early Texas Arsenals, because the placment of the initials is consistant with the American inspectors marks of this period. All of the Texas Veterans, that had these initials, have been looked at on existing documents at the Texas Library & Archives. In addition, the Musket has the appearance of having been reassembled with existing components. The population of Houston, Texas during this time frame was less than two thousand and the Texas Army had been reduced to less than 600 men by late 1837. The small town status made sharing of equipment a normal practice. Documents have been discovered that list shipments of English Muskets in various repair conditions going to the new Houston Arsenal. We believe that the Musket "JL" was sold to James Lathem, given to him for protection during transport, or kept by him. After 1840, all of the weapons at the Houston Arsenal were shipped to Austin, Texas and disappeared during the Mexican-American War period. Submitted by James Mitchell, President, Freedom Documents Fund, Inc. Publisher of the Travis Letter Color Prints and the Texas Declaration of Independence Color Prints at Web site www.freedomdocuments.com

[Robert Braun]

James1836 said:

To: Bob Braun The India Pattern Brown Bess Musket "JL" has the initials of "JL" on the stock and has no other Mexican marks on the barrel of stock. All of the stamping are correct to an ordinance British Musket with the Crown and GR with proof marks on the lock and the barrel. The ring style cock and the GR Markings place the manufacture period from 1809 to 1820. This was part of the surplus sold to Mexico through independent arms brokers in England. The head curator at the Tower Armoury has looked at the photographs of the Musket and has stated that the initials are not British. Dr. Bruce Winders, Head Curator and Historian at the Alamo, has personally examined the weapon and it was his suggestion to research the early Texas Arsenals, because the placment of the initials is consistant with the American inspectors marks of this period. All of the Texas Veterans, that had these initials, have been looked at on existing documents at the Texas Library & Archives. In addition, the Musket has the appearance of having been reassembled with existing components. The population of Houston, Texas during this time frame was less than two thousand and the Texas Army had been reduced to less than 600 men by late 1837. The small town status made sharing of equipment a normal practice. Documents have been discovered that list shipments of English Muskets in various repair conditions going to the new Houston Arsenal. We believe that the Musket "JL" was sold to James Lathem, given to him for protection during transport, or kept by him. After 1840, all of the weapons at the Houston Arsenal were shipped to Austin, Texas and disappeared during the Mexican-American War period. Submitted by James Mitchell, President, Freedom Documents Fund, Inc. Publisher of the Travis Letter Color Prints and the Texas Declaration of Independence Color Prints at Web site www.freedomdocuments.com

Thank you for this information. Is the "JL" a stamp? Or carved initials? Your post is unclear. While I understand your circumstantial evidence, it is not clear to me how it was determined that THIS musket was part of the British arms deal with Mexico. I am also leary of the concept of "inspector's marks" since American proof and inspection stampings on American-made military arms were modest prior to the American Civil War.

======================

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Regards,

Bob Braun
Moderator.

[James1836]

The initials on the India Pattern Brown Bess Musket "JL" are hand engraved and are approximately 1/2 inch tall and about 1/2 inch wide. They are carefully done with the "J" showing a second pass. The lettering appears to have been cut over drawn letters on the wood. The suggestion that the initials were placed in the location above the trigger only suggest that this was a possible American practice. This lead the investigation of the Texans who had an associated with the two early Arsenals at West Bernard and Houston. The "JL" were compared to any individual who had these initials and a match was made to James Lathem on three different documents held in the Texas Library & Archives under the Adjutant General for the Republic of Texas document holdings in Austin, Texas. The Brown Bess Muskets held by these early Arsenals had only one source and that was the Battlefield Muskets recovered at San Jacinto. Sam Houston's account placed the quantity at 600. We also know that a number of the Mexican-British Muskets were taken by Texas Veterans to replace their damaged weapons. Our initial investigation looked at any of the San Jacinto Veterans who had these initials. The signatures of sixteen Texas Veterans were looked at and compared to the initials "JL" with no matches. It is possible that a few Brown Besses were being carried by the Texans at San Jacinto. However, most of the Brown Besses held by the Texas Armies prior to San Jacinto were recovered by the Mexicans with the surrender at Goliad and at the fall of the Alamo. In addition, the Musket is known to have been in the hands of two Texas collectors for over ten years. The evidence is based on a great deal of circumstancial and hard physical evidence and is primarily backed up with the comparison of the engraved initials to existing signed documents. The research information has been shared with the Directors at the San Jacinto Museum of History, the Alamo, Sam Houston Memorial Museum and the Texas State History Museum and they are all going to present the Musket in the coming tour with the evidence presented. I hope this answers some of you questions.

[Robert Braun]

Thanks for this information.

1. I really must now insist that you comply with our board rule and sign your full real name to all your posts. You can accomplish this by either typing your full real name after each post, or adding your name to the "signature block" feature on your "Profile." Please contact me if you need any help setting up this feature.

2. Why does "JL" have to be a Texian? Could "JL" have been a soldado as well?

Bob Braun
Moderator.

[adjutant7inf]

I am sure someone has looked at the artifacts found at Post West Bernard which I believe the THC (Texas Historical Commission) has (I may be wrong on this, but someone did a digout there at sometime). Also, I am sure someone has looked at the East India Pattern that is in the book, Arms For Texas, that has the Mexican Markings, although the lockplate that Greg Dimmick found at the post-San Jacinto campsites did not have a Mexican eagle on it.

The Texas Ranger Hall of Fame in Waco has displayed in the past (although I am not sure if it is currently there) a Pagent Carbine that is said to have been picked up at San Jacinto as well. Never saw the entire documentation on this either.

If you East India Pattern is one of the 600 captured at San Jac and then at Post West Bernard, it is a great piece of Texas history. It would have chance of also being used at the Alamo, but since you have non-Alamo Mexican battalions at San Jac, it is only a possibility. You all have gone to some good sources to check this out. Continued good luck on the documentation.

Kevin R. Young

[James1836]

The question that the initials might be Mexican soldado has been looked at using information provided to us from Greg Dimmick. A shield of what appears to be a "J" and "L" was looked at. In this case, the Mexican "J" was used as a one. The best quess was that the Musket was part of a First Light Battalion which was used during the Mexican-American war. The style of the "J" in particular does not match the example we were provided. In addition, we have had no luck in finding any Mexican weapons that have any markings on the wood stock for comparision. Dr. Winders at the Alamo told us that over twenty thousand Brown Bess Muskets were burnt by the American Army after the Mexican-American War and there are apparently very few of these Muskets in Mexico. We have also looked at a large number of Mexican buttons in a photograph Dr. Winders had at the Alamo and there are no matches to the "J" style placed on the Musket. The style of the "L" is of an American origin based on information we have found on writting styles shown on the internet. We will contact the Ranger Hall of Fame about the Pagent Carbine and find out what their documentation supports. Only recently did the Alamo acquire a Brown Bess Musket. Unfortunately, this Musket has had a lot of replacement done on the wood stock and appears to be of the later period of production near 1820. The best evidence for knowing what type of Muskets were carried by the Mexican Army at San Jacinto is from the account of Edward Miles (San Jacinto Veteran) which is on the internet. He specifically describes the Muskets as "Tower" marked English. I have also looked at the recovered Brown Bess Musket parts that are now at the Wharton County Museum (Most of these parts are broken parts). Experts at the Tower Armoury have also provided us with good information that supports the evidence that most of the Mexican Weapons were of Ordinance Quality. However, there may have been a few privately produced Brown Besses in this mix. We do not believe that the Mexican Weapons carrying the Mexican Eagle were in service in 1836, but were in sevice during the Mexican-American War. One of the experts at the Tower Armoury believes that some of these Ordinance weapons came from Spain. The British supplied over 350,000 of these Muskets to Spain during their Civil War. A display case made of Pecan Wood is now being prepared to tour the Musket "JL" and in a few more weeks we will begin posting information on Web site www.freedomdocuments.com. It is interesting to note that the San Jacinto Museum of History does not have a Brown Bess Musket in their inventory or on loan from any other source. Signed James K. Mitchell, Jr. President Freedom Documents Fund, Inc. and President Historical Document Reproduction, Inc. P. O. Box 1021, Jasper, Texas 75951 Telephone [phone] e-mail [e-mail] I have signed the profile, but I don't know if it is working.