Militi Flags - Illinois Militia

[Robert Braun]

OK... now I am really confused.  

Let me see if I can sort this out.

1. U. S.  Army Regulations authorized the  Fifth Regiment two stand of colors, a National Color and a Regimental Color. According to the regulations, these flags were to be six feet on the staff, by six-foot six inches on the fly. These colors would have been ordered and delivered at some point in the regiment's history. Since the regiment was not on active campaign, the colors would have been provided the respect they were due and protectively housed in a building, office or some other structure. Provided this was indeed the case, the opportunity for "wear-out" appears remote, and hence prolonged liife-span of the colors was more likely than not;

2. The regimental colors would accompany the Colonel of the regiment;

3. The colors would be located at whatever post at which the Colonel deemed/designated/ assigned as regimental "Head Quarters." This could be Fort Snelling, Fort Howard, or whereever;

4. The Fifth Regiment garisoned several frontier posts simultaneously... usually by a detachment of companies commanded by a senior captain. Fort Winnebago was one of these posts;

5. Fort Winnebago was not the Head Quarters of the Fifth Regiment in 1832;

6. An 1850's sketch of Fort Winnebago in 1831 clearly shows a flagpole, from which is flying (apparenty) a "Stars and Stripes" flag that is rectangular in shape. See www.library.wisc.edu/etext/WIReader/Images/WER1105-4.html

6. We know from the Fort Winnebago "orderly book" that the post maintained a post flag, which the order book describes in post-BHW entries. This may be the same flag as in the 1831 drawing;

7. We know from a sketch of Fort Howard that at that post the garrison erected a large flagpole topped with a weather vane. From this pole the artist sketched a post flag, being a version of the "Stars and Stripes." This flag, as drawn, was clearly and severely rectangular in shape;

8. We agree that supplying western posts was occasionaly a problem. While I stipulate that receipt of replacement items like bayonet belt plates and P of 1816 muskets for hundreds of men might have been an issue (indeed it was, although not necessarily for the reason of insufficient inventory), we have not established that replacement or procurement of special or occasionally purchased items like flags was a problem.

I would suggest that these facts indicate the use of a rectangular post flag at Fort Winnebago, probably a variant "Stars and Stripes" style flag. The regimental colors would have been housed elsewhere.

[[e-mail]]

I quess I should restate that the demensions given were for material used for Regimental flags and not national Standards. National colors used two pieces of 28" material with an additional 14 " strip for a finished width of approximately 69"-70". The Approximate width of 56" was for the Regimental and the Fly would be to regs. The two pictures I have of the colors located at West Point show the Regimental more rectangular than to the squared national colors. True if the edges were not hemmed they would fray so I must add that they were selvedged to keep them from fraying or woven on the edges to keep them from fraying. The one reference I find is for National colors and they are to be six feet by the hoist and seven and a half by the fly. The 56" width is an approximate because I am sure at least 1/2" would be lost on the seam, it all depeded on the person sewing the seam.

[Robert Braun]

OK Roger... now you've really lost me. So, I'll cut to the chase scene--

Do we know the measurements of the national and regimental flags used by the 5th U. S. Infantry Regiment?

If so... is Snelling current interpretation correct?

[Gene]

OK, this thread is getting interesting. I just have to ask a question. If Snellings interpretation isnt correct...what do we do about it?

[Robert Braun]

Gene... before anything, I think we wait for a response from Roger and "howitzer."  r.

[Greg Carter]

This thread has perked my curiosity too...

GMC

[[e-mail]]

Ah, an opportunity to discuss again the variances of flags from the BHW. Pardon my disguise as a guest as I am on a different computer not available to me from work.

As this discourse is beginning to sound like a rough version of a Monty Phython sketch (is this the Argument Clinic or simply Contradiction?) I thought I'd try to reply from my perspective. Maybe I can clear up at least part of the perceived confusion.

1. First of all, there has never been any argument that either Fort Winnebago or Fort Howard had garrison flags. I have copies of the same pictures showing each. In fact, I presented a garrison flag to the DAR at the Old Surgeon's Quarters in Portage for them to fly on special occasions with an explanation as to its use. Actually, we did not stipulate special occasions but they chose to do that to avoid wear and tear on the flag (normally they fly a modern-day American flag).

2. As far as I can tell, no one has ever challenged the size and shape of the National colors. Regulations clearly state what size it was meant to be. The issue as far as I am concerned is the Regimental colors. As was stated in an earlier reply the inference was made that the flag we show for display was, although correct in design and color, too small compared to the original. From that point it seems that everything got out of hand (maybe I didn't present my views clearly enough).
As I previously mentioned, the flag we show to the public was donated to us for display and was based upon photos, drawings, and exact measurements from an existing flag located at West Point. The gentleman who reconstructed the flag is a highly reputable flag reproducer(?) who does hours of research. Incidentally, the flag in question cost $700 and the reason we do not have an example of the National colors is because this same individual charges $1500 for one of those (additional time as well as material). The account presented by Roger Ristow about the piecing of the flags is the same statement given to our group about the flags (in particular, the Regimental).

3. As a group, we do not tell the public that our regimental flag shows we are part of the headquarters at what ever location we are at. The flag is present because over the last six years that we have been involved in BHW material (longer than that if you count our experiences as militia) the public has repeatedly asked us about flags from that era (you guys can relate to that because you are asking the same questions). The flag has only been with us for the last three years. When asked, we simply tell those involved that this flag is representative of the Fifth regiment's regimental flag-nothing more, nothing less. We do, however, carry with us an additional garrison flag in case a site should want to raise one of those rather than a modern-day or earlier period American flag. We are aware that the regimental colors accompany the Colonel in command and, as none of us portray any sort of commissioned officer, we do not try to dissuade the public by stating anything more.

4. We are fully aware that Fort Winnebago was not the headquarters for the Fifth in 1832.

5. Mention is indeed made in "Three Score Years and Ten" about a garrison flag at Fort Winnebago. Reference is made of its flight during the funeral of an officer stationed there.

6. I find it hard to believe that something such as silk would be in such demand at a frontier post that it would supersede other items. In truth, officers themselves would be more likely to requisition a new rake, hoe, or shovel than a bolt of silk for a flag. As one regular officer from the age was quoted as saying, "my men are more adept with a farm rake in hand than with a musket."Perhaps I gave the impression that the flags in question would be out on parade constantly which would account for their eventual decline-if so, sorry, but I know better that that. Wear and tear could however also include tobacco smoke, insects, rodents, fireplace smoke, sunlight, etc. (the same things which are the enemies of flags more carefully stored today).

Well, there it is, my latest 2-cents worth. Hope this clears up at least a few questions from my point-of-view. In any regard, I'll try to get online again sometime this summer (in case you don't know, I'm one of those lazy "teachers" youv'e all read about).

howitzer

[Robert Braun]

Hmm.... since my direct questions went unanswered, let me respond to what has been stated.

"Howitzer," I think I understand where you are coming from here, although I am not yet sold on the issue of the size of the regimental banner. Interesting information... but it would be more compelling if we knew sources, measured diamentions, etc., etc.

Looks like I'll need to do some digging on my own...

Further, I stipulate that the reenactment 5th U. S. does a pretty good job with their BHW set-up, in terms of providing the public with interpretive displays and items they would not normally see in some museums... let alone at a reenactment event. So, from the perspective of third-person historical education of the public, I understand your viewpoints.

Further, I think we agree that a first-person portrayal of Company F , 5th U. S. Infantry from Fort Winnebago could not and should not include items they would not have had when in the field historically... including a garrison flag or any of the regimental stand of colors. My comments earlier in this thread are based on this perspective.

Finally, I'm lost with your comments in Item #6. My point regarding silk, and the general availability thereof, was that the martial traditions evolved thus far in the United States would not have relagated the procurment of a stand of colors for a regular army regiment to a mere trifle. Indeed, it would have been among the highest priorities.

[Greg Carter]

I have found something of an answer to Mike Thorson's question in reference to color bearers:

AN Act in addition to the acti entitled "An Act for the organization and government of the Militia of this State, approved January 25, 1826."

Approved February 9, 1827

Section 15

"In addition to the staff in the several regiments and odd battalions, in this state, as at present organized, there shall be appointed by the commandant of each regiment and odd battalion, a colour bearer, to each battalion; whose duty is shall be to take charge of the colours of the battalion, to which he may belong, and to bear the same at all regimental and battalion parades and drill musters, and on such other occasions as shall be necessary, when required to do so."

[Greg Carter]

Descriptions of colors in the annals of the Illinois Militia Laws are lacking. Although the law enacted in 1819 specifies:

"Section 2. Be it furthen enacted, That the following officers shall severally furnish their respective commands with the several articles hereunto annexed, within six months from the their appointments, viz: The colonel, or commanding officer of the regiment to furnish the same with a stand of colors for each battalion, with the number of the battalion, regiment and brigade and division inscribed thereon,"

It does not specify what the colors should look like. Neither does the revised law published in 1821 or 1826. I could not find descriptive notices of colors until the 1845 revision, which specifies as follows:

"Section 57. The colonels commanding regiments, and majors commanding battalions, not attached to a regiment, shall, as soon as there are funds sufficient belonging to the regiments or odd battalions, purchase out of said fund, a stand of colors made after the fashion of the United States' flag, with the number of the regiment, brigade and division inscribed upon it;"

Unfortunately this description is not so well made for the time period of the Sauk War. However, both essays do clearly define or at least infer a short time limit or time expectation, for when the unit had to have its colors in place.

GMC