Militi Flags - Illinois Militia

[Mike Thorson]

When reading through the rosters of the Illinois Militia I noticed that some soldiers were designated as "Color Bearer" or "Color Sergeant". Does anyone know of any documentation of flags OR if any still exist??

[Robert Braun]

The closest I can come right now is a description of a ceremony where the good people of Galena presented Col. Dodge with a flag.

Unfortunately, there was no description of the flag in the article. I suspect it was a "stars and stripes," but of course have no way of knowing this for sure... right now.

Bob.

[Gene]

A good place to check is with the Illinois National Guard Headquarters, last time I checked they were responsible for the oversite of the hall of flags in the capital in Springfield. There is a great room there that contains a couple of hundred flags that belonged to various Illinois units that served in conflicts. I believe the collection went back to the war of 1812.
           Gene

[Mike Thorson]

Gene,

Thanks for the information. It's interesting that you say they have flags back to 1812 - that's encouraging. Who knows where the "Dodge Flag" might be if it even exists (which it probably doesn't). Not in Wisconsin, maybe Iowa. A comprehensive study of the flags of the Black Hawk War (including Regular Army) would be an[glow=blue,2,300]interesting[/glow]piece!

[Greg Carter]

The US Infantry flags are not hard to find information on. The "National Color" at the time was not a stars and stripes. The Stars and Stripes were not carried in battle until the 2nd war with Mexico in the 1840's. The National Color was a dark blue flag featuring the National Coat of Arms, the spread-winged eagle beneath an arch of stars representing the states. The eagle was clutching in his mouth a banner bearing the national motto. Beneath the eagle was a banner or scroll of red bearing the name of the regiment. This flag was very similar to the regimental colors of the American Civil War, and is in fact the origin of those flags. It was also the same size- 6' on the pike by 6.5' on the fly, and constructed of silk. The regimental colors in 1832 were constructed of the same material in the same size, but were usually constructed of yellow or gold silk. The regimental colors bore only the banner featuring the name of the regiment, located in the center of the color. The 3rd US infantry was the exception to this standard, carrying a buff (very light tan) flag instead of a golden or yellow one. The blue and white tassels seen in the Civil War were used in 1832 and the 9' 10" (with eagle or halberd finial) pike regulation was also used. The problem with state flags of the time period was that Illinois did not settle on an official state flag until 1868, which unfortunately leaves much room for artistic license on the part of militia units.
For living history, Tom Steinkamp of Belvidere, who portrays a US Infantryman of the 5th Regiment at the Fort Atkinson Rendezvous has a very good reproduction of the regimental color of the 5th US Infantry, with the exception that it is quite small.

[Robert Braun]

You are quite correct regarding colors of the Regular Army.

However, based on a very limited number of militia examples from the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, and Santa Ana's War in Texas, none of these flags follow the tradiitions established by the Regular Army.

I readily concede that the flag Dodge received at Galena may NOT be a "stars and stripes." The more prominant use of the stars and stripes was in maritime service. That being said, the importance Galena had on  river trade for the shipment of ore out and the receipt of goods and supplies in makes the procurement of such a flag a possibility.

On the other hand, a home-made flag stitched by the ladies of Galena, in whatever style or motif, is probably the more likely scenario.

r.

[[e-mail]]

My friend John is the Commander of the SUVCW Grenville Dodge Camp in Des Moines, IA. He is checking for me to see if there are any pre-civil war era battle flags in the Iowa Capitol or State Building. He and his fellows have been raising lots of cash for restoration and preservation of the flags there, so he has been closely involved.

[[e-mail]]

An update- the only pre-ACW flag contained at the Iowa Capitol is a "great star" flag from the Mexican War period. Sorry to disappoint all of you looking for the Dodge flag.

[Greg Carter]

Yeah, depressing. My friend said he would check the records to see if there have been any other flags that may have deteriorated or something along that line, just in case.
G

[[e-mail]]

The Hall of Flags in Springfield contains 2 flags of the Mexican war,346 ACW flags, 22 from Span-Am War and 94 from WW1.

[howitzer]

Regarding the Regimental flags of the U.S. Regulars: it is quite correct that standard size for the flags by regulation was as previously stated. However, as is understandable, as time wore on, shortages began to develop for not only material for uniforms but also for flags as well. The flag represented by our living history group is 4.5' by 6' which, according to two reputable historical flag reproducers, could very well by historically accurate for a frontier post (I realize that Fort Snelling's flags are the uniform size as depicted in the regs for the era for I have seen them as well). We chose the flag we have based on problems of space in mobility, ease for carrying in parades, historical accuracy, and cost. One point of correction as well, the flag of the U.S. Regulars does not belong to Tom Steinkamp. It belongs to another historical reenactor who graciously has loaned it for display.

[Robert Braun]

I think we're talking about several different things here.

Regiments by regulation bore two colors, the national color and the regimental color, as indicated previously.

Now, in terms of the Regular Army in 1832, we're not talking about a large number of regiments here. I can see occasional spot shortages for uniforms and clothing... but in the post War of 1812 decades, I don't think the Army experienced the same kinds of shortages endured by state and federal procurers during "Mr. Madison's War." Correspondingly, I have a tough time handling a shortage of silk fabric so severe that the colonel of a U. S. Regular Infantry Regiment would consider purchasing a truncated version of their colors, in defiance of U. S. Army Regulations.

Even during severe cloth shortages that occured during the height of the War of 1812... regular regiments like the 25th U. S. and others carried full regulation-sized colors.

Now I concede that regiments like the 5th U. S. were scattered among several posts. However, the post designated as the regiment's "Head Quarters" would surely have and display the regiment's stand of colors. Posts like Howard and Winnebago indeed flew smaller flags, in one case a version of the "Stars and Stripes," however these were not considered "official" regimental colors, as defined by U. S. Army Regulations.

[[e-mail]]

As an active duty soldier I have an intrest in military colors. The colors(regimental) of this time period were made from two strips of silk 28" wide so the actual sizes are based on efficient use of the material rather than specific regulation sizes. These were seamed together so it came approximately 56" wide. the outer edges were not hemmed and the cord and tassles were white, as per Commisary General invoice which listed 24 pairs of white cords and tassles for colors

[Robert Braun]

If, as you state, U. S. Army silk flags were made of 28-inch wide fabric, this is an important revelation. It is my understanding that much fabric loomed during the antebellum period had a with a finished width of 27 inches, known as "3/4" for three-quarters of a yard. I have not heard of 28 inch wide fabric, and am interested in your source for this information. Your suggestion of a 56 inch measurement provides for no seam allowance when sewing the pieces together.

Further, it certainly appears that the intent of the Reulations was a finished color that was very nearly square... and indeed flags that I have observed from the antebellum period follow this tendancy. A flag with a 56 inch width or length would theoretically result in a markedly rectangular flag.... or a flag markedly smaller (about 4 1/2 feet square) than indicated in U. S. Army Regulations.

Now, if THREE pieces of 27 inch wide fabric were used, we would have an unfinished width of 81 inches... or six feet, nine inches. Taking into account the seam allowance for connecting the three pieces together, we have a finished diamention that approximates the "six foot, six inches" required by the Regulations. I am not suggesting that this was the actual method of flag construction... merely looking at fabric and the arithmetic.

Without hemming the edges, the outside perimeter would fray dramatically after just a few uses.

Two questions...

Do we know the actual diamentions of antebellum regimental colors... specifically the colors of the 5th U. S. Infantry?

And, if achieving the specified diamentions as indicated in U. S. Army Regulations was not possible, why did the Army prescribe it?

[howitzer]

I think a couple points probably need to be clarified. First of all, our historic impression is based partly upon company F of the Fifth regiment which was the garrison stationed at Fort Winnebago.

Secondly, we have based much of our impression with the information inferred by Steve Osman which goes into the concept that the western outposts would be the last units to receive updated equipment ( this is collaborated by the book, "Three Score Years and Ten, life at Fort Snelling"). I do not disagree as to what army regulations state, I am simply pointing out the fact that while there indeed may not be a shortage of silk material, the chances of it being procured on a frontier post such as Winnebago or even Snelling at regular intervals to account for wear and tear would not be high on their list of priorities. The men at Snelling, for example, were some of the last to receive the updated Springfield musket. Another good case in point would be the style and variety of breast plates.