Toponyms - Indian Origin

[Larry Koschkee]

Like many historians and history buffs, I am forever seeking out old maps and studying regions of interest. It just recently occured to me that toponyms on old maps of present day Illinois, Iowa (Eastern) and Wisconsin are predominately Algonquian in origin. This fact may be obvious to many but puzzling to me.

Since the end of the North American Continent ice age, the Winnebago (Hotchangra) have maintained their people were here first. Specifically what I am refering to is basically the present states of Illinois, Wisconsin and Eastern Iowa. All other tribes were "Johhny Come Lately," i.e., Kickapoo, Chippewa, Menomonie Potawatomie, Sauk, Fox and others too many to mention. Being goodhearted and extremely tolerant, the Winnebago let them move on to their tribual lands and co-habitat.

Demographics changed extensively in the following years and many tribes migrated out of the formally held Winnebago lands or established their own territory within those lands. In the specific time period of this message board, 1820's thru 1830's, the Winnebago were predominant in the "Lead Region" of Illinois and Wisconsin. The Winnebago were predominant, yet very few toponyms are acredited to that tribe. This is a curiosity to me. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Some examples of toponyms in the "Lead Region" or referenced during the Black Hawk War are Sinsinawa Creek (and Mound), Menominee Creek, Pecatonica River, Koshkonong, Kickapoo River. One lone Winnebago or Siouan toponym is "Ocooch Mountain."

Larry

[pshrake]

Larry,

Perhaps one clue to the lack of Ho-Chunk names is the very term Winnebago. As you know almost everyone else in the region referred to the tribe by that name dispite the fact that they called themselves Hotchungra. So not only did thier regional place names dissapear thier own tribal name was replaced as well.

It has been my understanding that the Ho-Chunk had somewhat difficult relationships with many of the surrounding tribes and with the French. Since many of the early maps were made by the French and the French adopted the name Winnebago for the tribe, perhaps when it came time to make the maps the French adopted the names used by the friendliest Indian allies.

Pete

[Larry Koschkee]

Pete,

You have certainly given a plausible explanation for the lack of Winnebago recorded toponyms on maps or written word.

In response to your comment about the Winnebago having difficulties with the French and neighboring tribes is correct in my estimation. One distinguishing factor in the conflicts was the fact they were not lasting. For what ever reason the Winnebago seem to have been willing to "kiss and make" up and go on about their lives until the next conflict. They never really had a arch Indian enemy. Their first arch enemy was the "Long Knives."

In pondering my own question, the subject of this thread, I come to the conclusion that I have underestimated the the overwhelming influence of the Pan-Algonquian culture. The culture over-shadowed the Siouan Hotchungra.

Laarry

[richw]

We have to keep in mind a few things while considering this question:

1. Geographic names are often assigned on "the spur of the moment."

2. Many "Indian" palce names are fake, e.g. Lake Mendota.

3. Keeping #1 in mind, map makers must overlap with native peoples in order to learn tradidtional place names.

Since the majority of early settlers came via the Mississippi River route, they first encountered Algonquian speakers and/or French who were more familiar with Algonquian place names.

4. Tradition names often die out, for example, the Winnebago Prairie. Old names are/were superceded by government surveyors.

5. The Ho-chunk population re-bound happened only a few generations before the Black Hawk War... not much time to develop well known place names in their recently expanded territory.

and 6. Yes, I am a cartographer.

[Larry Koschkee]

Rich,

Great observations and points. One important point to also keep in mind when pondering the origin of a Indian toponym is, was the explorer or mapmaker traveling with a European or Indian guide when a name was recorded? And, more specifically, what tribe is the Indian pilot? For example; when my favorite cartographer, Major Stephen Long traveled thru present day Illinois and Wisconsin in 1823 the place names changed from European origin to Indian origin. Long had a French-Canadian guide from Chicago to the Rock River. From the Rock River To Prairie du Chien he had a Sauk Indian pilot. Long's map place names changed again when he departed Prairie du Chien to the source of the Mississippi River. His guides at this segment of the expedition were a Sioux Indian and a French-Sioux metis who spoke fluent Siouan.

In interesting aspect of toponyms is they continued to emerge after Euro-American contact and the Indians were removed to points west of the Mississippi River.
For example; Sinipee, a Mississippi River town, established in 1838 northeast of Dubuque. Mr. Cliff Krainik submited an article to the Old Lead Region Historical Society website and describes the origin of the word Sinipee as Sauk. Six years after the conclusion of the Black Hawk War and after the Sauk had been removed to far distant parts of present day Iowa, who and why would someone choose the Sauk name for this town? Is this just another example of the strong influence of the Pan-Algonquian culture?

By the way Rich, my second most favorite cartographer who applied his craft in the lead region is David Dale Owen.

All this discussion of culture and language makes me wonder and ask a larger question germane to the Black Hawk War. THE MILITIA AND U.S. GOVERNMENT REGULARS WAGED WAR AGAINST A ALGONQUIAN SPEAKING TRIBE AND THEY DID NOT UTILIZE ALGONQUIAN INTERPRETERS. WHY THE DISCONNECT?

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

All this discussion of culture and language makes me wonder and ask a larger question germane to the Black Hawk War. THE MILITIA AND U.S. GOVERNMENT REGULARS WAGED WAR AGAINST A ALGONQUIAN SPEAKING TRIBE AND THEY DID NOT UTILIZE ALGONQUIAN INTERPRETERS. WHY THE DISCONNECT?

Whew!

Larry, you wouldn't be a-tryin' to povoke some sort of a response with all them capital letters, would ye?


r.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

I will do whatever it takes (caps included) to get the lurkers to engage in the discussion of this message board. I am sure you view the number of hits the board receives. Take that number and apply it to the number of people posting and you have a very low percentage of participants or for that matter look at the ratio of individuals posting and registered members.

Perhaps we could apply for a federal grant to study this situation.

Larry

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

Bob,

I will do whatever it takes (caps included) to get the lurkers to engage in the discussion of this message board. I am sure you view the number of hits the board receives. Take that number and apply it to the number of people posting and you have a very low percentage of participants or for that matter look at the ratio of individuals posting and registered members.

Perhaps we could apply for a federal grant to study this situation.

Larry

Maybe we can get federal money by claiming our "branch office" in Mississippi was des-troyed by the hurricane! The way oversight is going regarding monies flowing into the 'Gulf rim,' we'd have to move the cash with front-end loaders...

Seriously, I'm not sure the militia (at least) operated entirely without interpreters. Edward Beouchard served as a temporary Indian Agent after the St. Vrain massacre; before that he was instrumental in personally (and quite courageously) supervising the return of the Hall sisters. Presumably, he did this by drawing on his knowledge of native language which was, by some accounts, extensive. As you may recall, Beouchard served as a lieutenant in the militia company that built Mound Fort at the Blue Mounds.

We are well-familiar with the Winnebago Indians that accompanied Pierre Pauquette to guide General Henry and Col. Dodge from the Rock River Rapids to Wisconsin Heights. They also served as interpreters for the militia. True-- several accounts report that these men left the battlefield soon after the fight. However, at least one (possibly two) militiamen knew enough Winnebago to translate the "voice" from "Black Hawk's Mound" on the night of July 22, 1832.

I am guessing, but it would seem that at least in the militia, having some men with interpreter's skills were found to be of value-- particdularly in the wake of the dismal lack of interpretation that possibly precipitated the debacle at Old Man Creek.

Best regards,

Bob.

[richw]

My grandfather (a geologist) used to say that wherever he went, David Dale Owen had been there before him!

A few years ago, UW geomorpologist Jim Knox and I went in search of Owen's bluff near the mouth of the Kickapoo River. After much driving and hiking, we found where Owen had to have been to sketch the bluff and river. It was ineresting to note that the 1840's landscape of prairie and open savanna is entirely forested today.

I have found the same to be true (in varying degrees) of the 3 Black Hawk War landscapes (1850's) depicted by Brookes and Stevenson, especially the "Wisconsin Heights Battleground."

Now, back on topic, I have found Cassidy's Place Names of Dane County an amazing source of early place names of Native American origin. Too bad he didn't compile information on Grant and Iowa counties.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

To quote you..."move the cash with front-end loaders." I like the way you think - big!

To date I can only recognize one individual as a one on one Algonquian interpreter during the time period 1831-1832, that is none other than Antoine Le Claire. Beouchard may have had the skill but there is no specific reference that I can find.

I am of the opinion that during the BH War the militia and regulars had Winnebago (Siouan) interpreters that translated Algonquian to Siouan, then to english. This is not the ideal communication between two warring factions and much important meaning may be lost.

Bob said: "However, at one (possibly two) militiamen knew enough Winnebago to translate the "voice" from "Black Hawk's Mound" on the night of July 22, 1832."

Are you saying the "voice" was speaking to the militia in a Winnebago (Siouan) language?

Larry

[Larry Koschkee]

Rich,

I believe Major Stephen Long was up in the Kickapoo River Valley during his 1817 expedition. He had word from the Native Americans of a copper deposit in the valley. Do not have the specific reference at my finger tips now.

I agree with you that the landscape at the Bad Axe, Wisconsin Heights and Pecatonica battle sites are not in a pre-settlement state. I have tromped all over these sites and the only impression close to pre-settlement
would be the vistas at Bad Axe, however not in the a vegetative sense but the contour of ridge lines and of course Battle Island.

I am glad to hear from a person that likes to "stick their nose where the wild rose grows."

Thanks for the reference to Cassidy's Place Names of Dane County, I will hunt it up.

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

Bob said: "However, at one (possibly two) militiamen knew enough Winnebago to translate the "voice" from "Black Hawk's Mound" on the night of July 22, 1832."

Are you saying the "voice" was speaking to the militia in a Winnebago (Siouan) language?

Larry

Yes!

Now I don't have my copy of Thayer in front of me--in which the information I provided previously came from. For now, allow me to quote from Stevens The Black Hawk War p. 218:

During the night a sonorous voice was heard from a neighboring hill, supposedly giving orders to the enemy, but as nothing came of it, no commotion or preparation to renew the fight followed. It proved to have been Ne-a-pope suing for peace in the tongue of the Winnebagoes, supposing that the guides and interpreter present from that nation would understand and secure a parley, but as all the Winnebagoes had fled in the beginning of the action, his words were wasted. Had he been understood, no doubt can exist but Henry would have closed the war then and there, for Black Hawk now realized that he was no longer fighting Stillman's command (emphasis added.)

Thayer's citation indicate at least one, probably two Illinois militiamen approached Gen. Henry indicating that they knew what the voice was saying-- or at least enough to know that the voice was not threatening, but rather asking for a peaceful disengegement.

Fom my memory-- the essential workds were "Nee--com Pe-e-loo" or as translated in Thayer's citation "freinds! we fight no more!" The citation continued with Gen. Henry essentially telling his men to ignore the voice and to form ranks.

I will try to locate the original citation from my copy of Thayer's, now slightly buried amid my "move" boxes.

Best,

Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob, I distinctly remember addressing this issue of the language origin of the "Voice" in a thread "Voice in the Wilderness."

In one of the posts I commented that the phrase "Nee-com, Pe-e-el--o-o-o does not appear to be Winnebago or Siouan origin. Siouan for "friends" is hit'cak and fight is ki-za... not even close to the phrase.

The purpose of my questioning your post indicating the "voice" was Winnebago was to insert the possiblity that it may not be the case.

Best regards,

Larry

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

The purpose of my questioning your post indicating the "voice" was Winnebago was to insert the possiblity that it may not be the case.

Best regards,

Larry

Interesting... ! I am open to this possibility.

Sorry for the retread discussion, and I beg the board's indulgence for the deviation on this thread...

Will endeavor to shortly locate my copy of Thayer.

All the very best,

Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

No need to apologize for elaborating on the subject of another thread that was started a couple of years ago. You have just refreshed the topic and it just might stimulate additional comment from the world-wide web that could lead to more conclusive evidence of the origin of the WH orator.

Larry