Voice in the Wilderness

[Kaxiskaga]

Greetings...

Dare I say? Holy cow! Had I realized my post would have resulted in so much comment, I would have posted a long time ago! I do thank you both for your commentary. It has been truly informative and does point out I still have much to learn.(Although, I did know this before!)

A couple comments before I close this post...

Mr. Boyer is an aquaintance of a friend and fellow paranormal researcher. Accordingly, I've had the opportunity to both hear him in a public speaking venue and to speak with him in a small group of like-minded individuals. I remember him making the "Voice"/mound connection at the public venue. When I asked him for further comment in the small group(among other things...yes, he did roll his eyes at my flittering, fragmented thought pattern!) he reassured me this were his thoughts on it BUT he also mentioned he is a folklorist. (Please realize that any ghost story which is not related in the first person is considered folklore in paranormal research circles.)

I had the opportunity, last fall, to attend a tour of the Farwell Mound Group on Madison's northside. Bob Birmingham was the main speaker for this tour. I did get the chance to talk to him semi-privately and did mention my research. He did roll his eyes, ever so slightly, but my mention of the Indigenous angle to my research did elicit his e-mail address and has been quite helpful in providing archaeological details to several properties I've had the fortune to be called to for investigations.

Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is, I truly doubt the WSHS isn't, because of a shrinking budget, the least bit interested in chasing ghosts. And, if my recollections are correct, Bob Birmingham lost his job to that shrinking budget. I haven't e-mailed him in 4 or 5 months to find out if this is true but I'm pretty sure I saw a story in the Wisconsin State Journal a month or so ago stating that the State Archaeologist's job was axed in the budget cuts. Truly a sad loss!

[Robert Braun]

Regarding any connection between the prehistoic mound builders and the spectral "voice"-- I would say that one man's guess is pretty much as good as another.

My discussions with DNR personel who were on hand for some of the archaeological workup at WH indicated that prehistoric artifacts were found... further supporting the presence of "mound builders" in the area.

IMHO, I think we're way head of ourselves trying to make some connectivity between a prehistoric people (how much "pre historic??") and an alleged voice that used "pre-contact" language. For example--- I know many so-called "archaic" or quaint English language words and phrases; some of which span three centuries. However, just because I am familiar with pre-colonial America upland British phrases and dialect makes me not a pre-colonial Briton!

I have one more theory on the "voice"--but first a question... since my copy of Mr. Boyer's book is still in transit, I will ask it here: What was the approximate date of the modern eyewitness accounts of hearing the "voice" in the context of "pre-contact" language? Before say 1990? Afterwards?

As for Mr. Birmingham, I believe that I read in the Wisconsin State Journal towards the latter half of July that he had tendered his intention to retire from the WHS. Certainly, budget cuts had much to do with his decision. I agree with Mr. Jones that his will be a great loss to Wisconsin and Wisconsin people generally. He made great strides in areas of archaeology and in positive connections with native peoples. And unlike some in the great city of Madison, he maintained a civil cordiality towards so-called "little people" like me when I had sundry questions about this or that.

Larry... looks like we're going have to delve into that "marker tree" subject in a seperate thread! Care to start one?

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

In response to your inquiry: What was the approximate date of the modern eyewitness accounts of hearing the "voice" in the context of "pre-contact" language? Before say 1990? Afterwards?

Mr. Boyer does not name specific individuals or make reference to approximate date the individuals heard the "voice." This omission is out of respect for the individual courageous enough to come forward with such a story and to avoid any public ridicule or embarrassment.

There is a time frame for Boyer's collection of the story however, which would be after he published the book Ghosts of Iowa County (Except for Ridgeway) in 1993.

I for one would like you to expand on your statement: IMHO, I think we're way ahead of ourselves trying to make some connectivity between a prehistoric people (how much "prehistoric??") and an alleged voice that used "pre-contact" language...

Now if you are referring that I am well ahead of myself, I will make no retraction or apology for my point of view.

And one other thing. My suggestion to the OLRHS to form a detail to investigate the "voice" was done with levity. Do not take me seriously that I would encourage the OLRHS to chase after tales of spirits, boogers, witches, and haints.

And furthermore, I appreciate Mr. Jone's courage to come forward with his post and mention his paranormal activities. I see no wrong in maintaining an open mind and "thinking out of the box" on some historical topics.

Larry Koschkee

[Robert Braun]

Hello, Larry. Thanks as always for your posting.

To your request to expand on my one point, I believe I did expand on my remark by providing an example.... that being-- my knowledge and use of pre-colonial upland British phrases, idioms, and dialect does not make me a pre-colonial Briton. In the same vein, hearing what has been described as "pre-contact" Ho-Chunk language does not in my mind necessarily equate to the mound-builders known to inhabit what is now the WH battlefield area. All I am saying is that in my opinion "A" does not necessarily equal "B."

I readily concede that it may be that "A = B." I don't know how we would ever know that, but the possibility exists. Larry, you certainly have no reason to retract any of your statements in this thread, nor was that my purpose.

Regarding your comments on the OLRHS starting an investigatory committee to look into the matter, I truly believe I took your "investigatory" suggestion in the lighthearted manner it was intended.

That being said, I have never once "pooh-poohed" Mr. Jones' postings, nor his reporting of presumptive spectral activity at Wisconsin Heights. One of the reasons this board exists is to offer a forum for historical discussions that may indeed range outside the box.

As I have indicated in a previous post, my personal experiences with presumptive "activity" at other battlefield sites has allowed me to preserve an open mind on Mr. Jones' subject.

[Robert Braun]

I now have had an opportunity to review portions of Mr. Boyer's Driftless Spirits work. He presents a far more interesting approach to the subject of the paranormal than some collections of "ghost stories" I have read.

By far, the segment on the "voice" at WH is among the more compelling stories in the book.

In contrast, the story related about the alleged spectral connection at "Bloody Lake" (Pecatonica) comes across as among the most questionable. Sort of like one of the first tales in Ghosts of Gettysburg: Spirits, Apparitions and Haunted Places of the Battlefield by Mark V. Nesbitt... the one about the ACW reenactors lounging on Little Round Top during the 1981 reenactment-- when approached by a figure dressed in a remarkably good Federal infantry "impression," who supposedly spoke in a New England (!) dialect, and allegedly handed the modern fellows several ball cartridges! (According to the footnotes these cartridges were supposedly authenticated as real by the NPS regional headquarters at Harper's Ferry... which I guess is supposed to lend additional credibility to the story.)

For those of us who were actually at "Gettys-bog 1981" and know a little about the construction and manufacture of ACW period ball cartridge ammunition... there are holes in Nesbitt's retelling that one could drive trucks through!

Regards, Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

I would have to agree with you on the point that "Spirit of the Bloody Lake Rendezvous" in Boyer's book Driftless Spirits is on the very edge of believable.

Care to take a stab at what the dialectal language is in the story presention?? Also, if you were thinking what I was thinking when I first read the story... my thoughts jumped to Spencer at Spafford's Farm...

Larry K.

[Robert Braun]

Larry... I think Mr. Boyer ascribes the storytelling of the alleged Bloody Lake specter to a rendezvous-going "rotund man in a kilt"... which I guess explains the sort-of Scots dialect in the text.

My recent contacts with the rendezvous world has revealed that a "rotund man in a kilt" seems to be an obligatory fixture at such events.

Yes... at first blush, a vision of the wild-eyed Spencer raced through my gourd. Early on, it made sense, given the severe impact of the ambush's outcome on him and his reported behaviors afterward. However, there are too many holes in the story (as related by Mr. Boyer) to make the telling little more than a "tall tale."

Additionally... I thought spirits supposedly/reportedly inhabited sites, locations, or areas where there was some kind of connectivity during life. One common thread in Mr. Boyer's stories seems to be that spectral activity appears to relate to the area in which it is reportedly seen/experienced... similar to Mr. Boyer's "Wisconsin Heights Voice" or the "Blue Mounds Watcher." What I am saying is... Mr. Boyer has related the story of say the "pre-contact Ho-Chunk voice" only to WH... and apparently not to sites in Vernon County, or Grant County, or even Dane County where other mound-building activity was known to transpire.

In my mind, I would find a story about Spencer's specter in the vicinity of the old Spafford Field, or in the woods and fields between South Wayne and Wiota, or in/around Wiota more believeable than at today's Black Hawk Memorial Park. By all available accounts, Spencer had no connectivity with the skirmish at Bloody Lake... so why would his spirit inhabit the place?

Regards, Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

I find agreement in your possible Scotsman dialect and can identify with your rendezvous observations of a "rotund man in a kilt." In many instances there is not a kilt but a loin cloth.

I have not applied for a federal grant to study the phenomena yet, but it seems the rendezvous of the plains states or the "great" northwest have a higher ratio of gaunt, wispy participants when compared to the Great Lakes region.

Walking on very un-familiar ground and without further digression, I do have a theory or possibility why Spencer could be haunting Bloody Lake.

Essentially, Dodge's command sought revenge for the murders at Spafford's farm and the German Apfel. They were successful in carrying that out at the Battle of the Pecatonica. The subject of Boyer's spectral story of Bloody Lake does not appear agressive, terrifying or dreaded, rather it is reasonable to invite the specter to ones campfire for coffee.

Spencer is a resident spirit of Bloody Lake because that is the place his friends or commrades were avenged. It is also a place where his earthly, crazed and tormented mind could not find relief, however in his spirit form he is soothed there.

The friendly demanor toward others suggests that the spirit is comfortable with the site and its notorious history.

So there is a "tall tale" for you...

Larry K.

[richw]

Sorry I'm a couple of years late on this!

The Hochunk named the four lakes from north to south, i.e. Mendota was #1. When Euro-Americans mapped the four lakes, they numbered from south to north, i.e. Mendota was #4. The names Mendota, Monona, Kegonsa, etc. were borrowed from Minnesota lakes.

Yahara, I am told, referred originally to the segment of river between Lake Mendota and Lake Monona. Later the entire Catfish River was renamed Yahara. I have heard that "Yahara" means "river between two lakes."

If I could find my "Place Names of Dane County," I could tell you more!

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

Bob,

I find agreement in your possible Scotsman dialect and can identify with your rendezvous observations of a "rotund man in a kilt." In many instances there is not a kilt but a loin cloth.

I have not applied for a federal grant to study the phenomena yet, but it seems the rendezvous of the plains states or the "great" northwest have a higher ratio of gaunt, wispy participants when compared to the Great Lakes region.

Walking on very un-familiar ground and without further digression, I do have a theory or possibility why Spencer could be haunting Bloody Lake.

Essentially, Dodge's command sought revenge for the murders at Spafford's farm and the German Apfel. They were successful in carrying that out at the Battle of the Pecatonica. The subject of Boyer's spectral story of Bloody Lake does not appear agressive, terrifying or dreaded, rather it is reasonable to invite the specter to ones campfire for coffee.

Spencer is a resident spirit of Bloody Lake because that is the place his friends or commrades were avenged. It is also a place where his earthly, crazed and tormented mind could not find relief, however in his spirit form he is soothed there.

The friendly demanor toward others suggests that the spirit is comfortable with the site and its notorious history.

So there is a "tall tale" for you...

Larry K.

After a couple of years deliberation, the larger part of me has settled on the belief that Larry's theory is as good as anyone else's.

The small part that remains ist still nagged by Francis Spencer's known history:

1. Spencer survived the horrific massacre at Spafford's Field;

2. The experience left him terribly frightened, to the point of possbile mental breakdown;

3. He wantered the woods, until he reportedly was found hiding in a hog pen near Fort Hamilton;

4. Whitney (I think) reported that Spencer was never quite himself again, and later left the region;

5. By virtue of his deranged woods-running, Spencer never participated in the battle of Bloody Lake. No evidence has yet emerged that he ever toured the site after the battle. Hence it is most difficult to draw a line between a spirit that is supposed to inhabit a site, and the site where the spirit never visited or abided in life.

This tiny part of me thinks that Spencer at Bloody Lake makes as much sense as the ghost of Lincoln (or Jeffy D. for that matter!) showing up at Bloody Lake...

...but who knows?

Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Has historical research become tedious to the point that you are contemplating the haunting of Horseshoe Bend? ;D

I agree, one theory appears to be as good as another on the spectral source. You have made some good points that would rule out Francis Spencer as the source with one exception. Before I address that exception, I can not help but insert some poetry in this reply.

Bob said: "He wandered the woods, until reportedly was found hiding in a hog pen near Fort Hamilton."

"To stray away into these forests drear, alone without a peer." (John Keats)

Your 5th point - "No evidence has yet emerged that he ever toured the site after the battle. Hence it is most difficult to draw a line between a spirit that is supposed to inhabit a site, and the site where the spirit never visited or abided in life."

It should not be unreasonable to state that Spencer may have been familiar with the vicinity of "Horseshoe Bend." Via todays present highway from Wiota (Fort Hamilton) to Woodford, Wisconsin at 7.5 miles and as the crow flies or on horseback cross-country, somewhat less. The point is - not that far from Spafford Farm or Hamilton's.

In addition, there was a road just north of the horseshoe bend that was depicted on 1831-1832 land survey maps. The road was described on the map as "Road to Sugar creek." The road connected "Hamiltons Diggings" with "Deviese Diggings" which was northeast of Hamilton's and road continued on to Brigham's. The point is - Spencer may have traversed this route from time to time.

At the least, Spencer may have been remotely familiar with the battle site. He may have went fishing in the area.

Regards,

Larry

[Robert Braun]

Another great post, Larry!

Yeah... it is fair game to wonder about ol' Bob's resurrection of such an esoteric topic. I have run into a few snags on the WIsocnsin Heights book, and was going through some board threads. This one just happened to catch my eye.

Thanks again for your tolerance, and your facinating insights!

Best, Bob

[Larry Koschkee]

Nee-com, pe-e-el-o-o-o are some of the words that the orator shouted in the dark and was interpreted by Payton Pilcher of Ewing's Spy Battalion to mean - "Friends, we fight no more."

As I mentioned in this thread and one other, Siouan for friends is hit'cak and fight is ki-za and do not resemble any words in the Pilcher quote.

An individual has answered my plea for further interpretation of Pilcher's quote. Her credentials are a four year college degree in education, trilingual (French, English and Algonquian) and teaches native language as a first language at a Oblate Missionary school at the River De'sert Algonquin Reserve near Miniwaki, Quebec .

Algonquian interpretation of Pilcher's quote:

1) Southern Algonquian form (South of the Great Lakes)

- Nitotem nin migadiwin kawin-keiabi -

2) Northern Algonquian form

- Nitotem nin migasowin namoya-awasime -

Friends variant is Nitotem (my friends) or Kitoteminaw (our friends)

Of all the words in Pilcher's quote, Nitotem has some sound semblance to Nee-com. If we could stop with that word, the native language teacher advises the phrase could be construed to be Algonquian, unfortunately "pe-e-el-o-o-o" brings us back to the starting point - what was the language of the orator?

[Robert Braun]

larrykoschkee said:

Nee-com, pe-e-el-o-o-o are some of the words that the orator shouted in the dark and was interpreted by Payton Pilcher of Ewing's Spy Battalion to mean - "Friends, we fight no more."

As I mentioned in this thread and one other, Siouan for friends is hit'cak and fight is ki-za and do not resemble any words in the Pilcher quote.

An individual has answered my plea for further interpretation of Pilcher's quote. Her credentials are a four year college degree in education, trilingual (French, English and Algonquian) and teaches native language as a first language at a Oblate Missionary school at the River De'sert Algonquin Reserve near Miniwaki, Quebec .

Algonquian interpretation of Pilcher's quote:

1) Southern Algonquian form (South of the Great Lakes)

- Nitotem nin migadiwin kawin-keiabi -

2) Northern Algonquian form

- Nitotem nin migasowin namoya-awasime -

Friends variant is Nitotem (my friends) or Kitoteminaw (our friends)

Of all the words in Pilcher's quote, Nitotem has some sound semblance to Nee-com. If we could stop with that word, the native language teacher advises the phrase could be construed to be Algonquian, unfortunately "pe-e-el-o-o-o" brings us back to the starting point - what was the language of the orator?

Larry... thank you for always looking to the next ridge in helping us understand the many subtilties of the era and the conflict specifically.

Geat job!

Bob