Voice in the Wilderness

[Larry Koschkee]

During the night or early morning hours after the battle at Wisconsin Heights a mysterious orator was heard seemingly addressing the military encampment. Scholars and historians have varied opinions on the identity of the individual as well as the meaning of the incident... Some of the names are:

Meriwether L. Clark in a letter dated July 25, 1832 to William Clark stated the Indian voice was We-sheet. Whitney's The Black Hawk War 1831-1832, Vol. II, Part II, pg. 878.

Frank Steven's The Black Hawk War, 1903, pg 218 cites the Indian voice as Ne-a-pope.

Frank Steven's Wakefield's History of the Black Hawk War, 1908, pg. 112 cites the Indian voice as Ne-a-pope.

C. B. Chapman in Wisconsin Historical Collections, Vol. III, pg. 346 was convinced the voice was Black Hawk.

Perry Armstrong's book Sauks and the Black Hawk War, 1887, pg 462, claims the man behind the voice was Neosho, who had a voice like a trumpet... There is something familiar about this name. By coincidence this is the name of a small Wisconsin village that is located in the vicinity of Black Hawk's campsite on the rapids of the Rock River (Hustisford, WI) below Cranberry Lake (Horicon)... There is a small lake nearby called Neosho Lake...Virgil Vogel's book Indian Names On Wisconsin Maps, 1991 states Neosho is a Siouan name meaning "small water hole."

Whitney's The Black Hawk War 1831-1832, Vol. II, Part II, page 1058, lists a Sac Indian by the name of Ke-no-con-no-saat (Kinnekonnesaut)--he that strikes the foremost. kid. (killed) by the Sioux...the man with loud voice... this entry comes from Robert Anderson's "Memoranda" dated August 27, 1832 which, is a memorandum to the Preliminary Roll of Prisioners at Rock Island.

It has been established that Ne-a-pope was not present at the battle so that clearly rules him out...

Black Hawk in his autobiography gives this evidence: I was astonished to find thaat Ne-a-pope and his party of spies had not yet come in--- they having been left in my rear to bring the news, if the enemy were discovered... Ne-a-pope and one other, retired to the Winnebago village, and there remained during the war! The balance of his party, being brave men, and considering oujr interest as their own, returned, and joined our ranks.

Ne-a-pope, a prisoner at Fort Armstrong, was interrogated by military officials and Acting Indian Agent, Major J. Pilcher.... Ne-a-pope's testimony about the battle at Wisconsin Heights:

The morning of the day when the Americans overtook the Sacs at Wisconsin the Prophet said some young men must go and hunt. The prisoner went with two parties, each taking a side of the trail, they were to join the night camp. The Prophet finding the Americans so close upon them took another direction. The hunting parties went at night to the place where they expected to find the Sac camp, and came upon the American trail, they then disperesed. The prisoner (Ne-a-pope) went to a Winnebago village of the one eyed man ("the Blind") on the waters of Rock river. This man wears a black silk handerchief over his blind eye. He staid six days at this village... Source: Whitney's The Black Hawk War 1831-1832, Vol. II, Part II, pg. 1035

Does the mysterious orator remain a mystery yet today???

Your thoughts here!

[Robert Braun]

I think Crawford Thayer, in his second book, offered a rare opinion that the voice might be that of Kinnekonnesaut.

We may never know the true identity of the strange voice for certain. However, it seems reasonable to rule out both Black Hawk and Neapope.

Are we correct in assering that the voice spoke in the Winnebao language? And ---help me here--- is my recollection correct that BH did not speak Winnebago?

I also recall some passage that stated to the effect that the voice spoke in Winnebago because that was the language of Henry's and Dodge's guides. That being the case, how did the "voice," or whomever sent the "voice," KNOW that? I mean, they couldn't have known that Henry and Dodge were bound for Fort Winnebago and would manage to pick up Pauquette and a dozen native guides there.

Would they?

[Larry Koschkee]

Crawford Thayer's book Massacre at Bad Axe does make a reference to Kinnekonesaut as "the man with the loud voice", however in a different context or setting. Thayer's reference was to the battle at Bad Axe, not Wisconsin Heights. (pages 196, 421)

H. S. Townsend speech, Vernon County Censor newspaper, August 10, 1898, Viroqua, Wi... We heard a man talking loud and plain on the bluff. It was Black Hawk delivering a lecture to his people. Thayer says; No, Black hawk was not involved in the massacre at Bad Axe. This may have been Kinnekonesaut, now the number three warrior of Black Hawk's band. He was later indentified as "the man with the loud voice".

Thayer then references the source the same I have given in this thread which, is Robert Anderson's "memoranda."

Bob, you raise two other good questions here.

1) Are we correct in asserting that the voice spoke in the Winnebago language? It is a good point of discussion, something I have pondered for a long time. I do not have an answer, perhaps others do.

2) And --- help me here --- is my recollection correct that BH did not speak Winnebago?. Here again... another excellent point of discussion....

One compelling example for me that Black Hawk did not speak fluent Winnebago or Siouan was in his autobiography.

We had been here but a little while before we saw a steamboat (the 'Warrior,') coming. I told my braves not to shoot, as I intended going on board, so that we might save our women and children. I knew the captain (Throckmorton) and was determined to give myself up to him. I then sent for my white flag. While the messenger was gone, I called to the captain of the boat, and told him to send his little canoe ashore and let me come aboard. The people on board asked whether we were Sacs or Winnebagoes. I told a Winnebago to tell them that we were Sacs, and wanted to give ourselves up!

Also, I can not give an answer to your next to last question of your post, but it would also be an excellent point of discussion, because the language and interpretation between the principle players in the BHW is intriguing.

Last question...Would they? A maybe is not a good answer but it would lead to another thread that would discuss "Indian Intelligence", militarily speaking.

Larry K

[Robert Braun]

Great areas of discussion to ponder.

Regarding Thayer, now you've got me wondering. I'm pretty sure I THOUGHT I saw a short little footnote, or aside, or something in his WH book that spoke to the voice being Kinnenonnesaut. Will have to re-check.

I am also intrigued by the assertion that the "voice"--

a.) reportedly came from the same mound from which BH ditected hsi soldiers during the WH fight and;

b.) came a full day and night AFTER the action.

It's enough to make one think that the militia was under some sort of surveillance during their camp on the battlefield. Then again... maybe it was a warrior like Kinnenonnesaut who returned to the battle ground on his own hook to plead the case of the band's survivors.

This latter thought seems possible, given the fact that the voice knew about the mound doubtless chose it because of the relative safety it would provide against even the thought of a milita night attack or foray. Smart thinking!

Will check my copy of Thayer...

Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

Let's come at the question...what was the language of the "big voice" orator?, from a different angle here...

In Wakefield: History of the Black Hawk War, page 124, John Wakefield says that Dodge had a militia man that could speak or interpret Winnebago.

July 30th... Three more of the children of these wild and dreary looking mountains came to us, after we had stopped to encamp. They came with a sort of white flag, which they carried on a stick. Mr. Chiler Armstrong, a gentleman belonging to General Dodge's corps, was the only one that could talk with them in their language.

The children that Wakefield was refering to were Winnebago.

If Armstrong was with Dodge at the battle of Wisconsin Heights on July 21 and the second night thereafter when the voice in the wilderness was heard, Armstrong should have known what the Indian was saying if he was speaking in Winnebago tongue.

However, if Armstrong was there and the Indian voice was in the Algonkian tongue no interpretation could have taken place. Can we then conclude, providing we can place Armstrong at Wisconsin Heights, the language of the orator was a tongue other than Winnebago?

BTW, Bob, not meaning to put any pressure on you, did you come up with Thayer's account of the orator at Wisconsin Heights?

Larry IK.

[Robert Braun]

Larry said:

In Wakefield: History of the Black Hawk War, page 124, John Wakefield says that Dodge had a militia man that could speak or interpret Winnebago.

- - - - - - - -

BTW, Bob, not meaning to put any pressure on you, did you come up with Thayer's account of the orator at Wisconsin Heights?

Larry IK.

Hello... and sorry for the delay!

Crawford Thayer's footnote-- where he attempts to elucidate the identity of the WH "voice"-- is found on page 190 of The Battle of Wisconsin Heights.

Towit:

The speaker may have been Kinnekonesaut ("he that strikes the foremost" or "he that strikes first".) Now, with the death of the number two brave, Me-ne-kau, in the battle of Wisconsin Heights, Kinnekonesaut became the number four warrior of Black Hawk's band. Later as a prisoner after the battle of Bad Axe, Kinnekonesaut was identified with the notation, "the man with the loud voice.

Thayer's text identifed two men with Henry and Dodge that apparently recognized the words of the "voice." One was identified as Lieutenant Daniel S, Harris, of Captain Stephenson's company of Galena rangers (then attached to Dodge's squadron): Although he was so far distant I could hear distinctly every word and I understood enough to know that he did not want to fight.

The other was Payton Pilcher in Ewing's Spy Battalion. Later, as a resident of Elizabeth, IL, he was quoted as saying that he and his comrades were "awakened by the shrill voice of the chief, and that he plainly understood: 'Nee--com, Pe--e-el---o-o-o;' 'Friends, we fight no more.'"

Thayer also quotes a fellow who claims to quote Black Hawk as saying HE, Black Hawk, was in fact the voice! I will add this tidbit later... .

Bob.

[Robert Braun]

Thayer, on his page 190 footnote, continued:

"But in later years Black Hawk said: he sought an opportunity of speaking with the Indians who were accompanying the Americans; but finding none, he went back some distance, the night after Wisconsin Heights, and ascended a tree, as near the American encampment as he thought it prodent to venture, and spoke in as loud a a voice as he possibly could, desiring the American Indians to inform the white that he was not for war, that he was only endeavoring to leave the country, and he hoped he would be permitted to do so in peace."

So there you have it. Mystery solved. The mysterious voice was none other than Black Hawk himself.

Thayer's source for this fantastic quote was John Shaw's "Indian Chiefs and Pioneers of the Northwest," Wisconsin Collection of History Vol. X, p. 218.

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob... there you go again, gad and pick in hand, digging up all this remarkable information.

If I can just get a word in edgewise here, I would like to remark on the Payton Pilcher statement that he understood what the voice was speaking.

"Nee--com, Pe--e-el---o-o-o; Friends, we fight no more"

I can say with reasonable certainty the origin is not appear to be Siouan, because I believe the Winnebago name for "friends" is hitcak and "fight" is ki-za.

Perhaps some one out on the world wide web who Hotcangit-ega "speaks Winnebago" could weigh in on this discussion.

Larry K.

[Kaxiskaga]

Greetings...

I am somewhat new to this board. (I have read as a guest but never posted) For the past several years, I have had an avid interest in local history (I live in Madison,WI) , particularly, the history of the Indigenous people and the anomalies that appear to exist even to this day. (To clarify the last part of that statement...I run a small paranormal research group and have been contacted by several people claiming "hauntings" in their homes where "ghosts" of Indians are seen.)

Anyway, I do understand the question of who's voice was heard at Wisconsin Heights has been answered. I'm not questioning that at all but, if I may, I'd like to add my two cents worth; some a bit off-topic (which I hope you'll find interesting) and some on-topic.

"The Voice" has an interesting place in ghostlore as, it seems, even to this day when the conditions are right people still hear a strong resounding voice in the darkness speaking in the darkness near the WH battlefield. It is said that this voice is understood (doesn't speak English) and further said the language is that of pre-contact Hocak (Winnebago).

Source:"Driftless Spirits"; Dennis Boyer, Prairie Oak Press, 1997

"The prisoner (Ne-a-pope) went to a Winnebago village of the one eyed man ("the Blind") on the waters of Rock river. This man wears a black silk handerchief over his blind eye. He staid six days at this village..."

This one eyed man can be none other than, Kaxiskaga, otherwise known as White Crow, aka. "The Blind". Juliette Kinzie, wife of Indian Agent, John Kinzie, Jr. of Ft. Winnebago (Portage, WI) and authoress of "Wau-Bun", described him..."always wore a black silk hankerchief over the left side of his face to hide his eye injury."

The Madison area was called Taychoperah by the Ho-Chunk which translates, roughly, to Four Lakes. These four lakes are fed, from the north by, in historical text, the Catfish River. Hopefully, any inquiries as to why this name can't be found on modern day maps have been found but for those that haven't found the answer, it is now called the Yahara River.

White Crow's village has been variously described, in my inquiries, as; 1) on the south side of Lake Mendota near Fuller's Woods and close to the Yahara as it exits Lake Mendota, 2) near Pheasant Branch Creek in present day Middleton (I believe this is the village Blackhawk visited before his push toward WH), 3) Carcajou Point on the western shore of Lake Koshkonong, and, 4) Sauk Prairie (October 1834).

White Crow appears to figure strongly in both the return of the Hall girls and in the Battle at WH.

L. J. Jones

[Robert Braun]

Hello... and welcome to the Black Hawk War discussion board.

You lost me on the connection with White Crow ("The Blind") and the "voice" at WH. By the time the voice was heard by the militia troops on the pre-dawn hours of July 23, the Winnebago guides had been long gone.

Regards, Bob.

[Robert Braun]

Hello again.. !

After re-reading your post, I found additional confusion.

That being-- the number of residents in the greater Mazomanie/Sauk City area that would be a.) around to hear the alleged "ghost" voice and b.) would have the linguistinc expertise to recognize pre-contact Ho-Chunk from post-contact Ho-Chunk language.

Having no knowledge of native languages myself, I would be interested to know the differences between pre and post contact Ho-Chunk... and how one could make the distinction between the two.

Regards, Bob.

[Larry Koschkee]

A simple but congruent response to Mr. Braun's comments or inquiries would be a quote from Chief Dan George in his role in the movie Outlaw Josey Wales, starring Clint Eastwood. "Only an Indian knows these things."

Dennis Boyer's book Driftless Spirits that Mr. Jones refers to, cites several interviews with individuals that heard the "Voice." Duck hunters, fisherman, farmers and grandmothers all witnessed the "Voice" and all did not recognize the tongue.

Some one did recognize the the language, however and here is a quote from Boyer's book that puts Mr. Jone's statement about pre-contact language in context.

(Grandmother) - How to go about understanding it was a different matter. Some said it was Sauk Indian language. So it might as well have been Chinese. But later I made friends with a Winnebago lady, who played bingo in the Dells. I told her the story and she was interested. She came down one evening to hear for herself.
My, nothing happened. Good Lord, I was embarrassed. I thought she would think I was crazy. She took it well and said we would try again.
The second time we hear the Voice. She said she understood little parts of it. The yelling was mostly 'no,' 'get away,' 'stop,' and 'bad.'
The third time she brought an uncle from Black River Falls. He understood the yelling better. He said it was an old language. It was how Winnebago and Sioux were spoken before the white man came.
My friend's uncle said The Voice saw everything that went on along his stretch of river. On the evening of our visit, the yelling had to do with someone throwing garbage out of a car, another person throwing bottles in the river, and still another catching fish and killing them and throwing them away.
The old man explained that this ghost was disturbed by the battle and would not gain peace until the area was again treated as a sacred place.

Languages evolve over time and the Winnebago or Siouan language is no exception. The study of the Winnebago people indicates the tribe was one nation, then many factions or bands broke off forming other nations. What later became known as the Oto Indians is an example. They settled along the Platte and Missouri rivers and speak the same Siouan language as the Ho-Chunk with few differences and use many old words that the Winnebago employed long ago but have now given up.

An example of old words that stem from "the land Winter made" evolved as the object evolved is an archaic Winnebago name for Mississippi River. Nee-goo-sak-hoo-xhoon, translated as "Swift Drain River." It was appropriate for the post ice age waterway, many times larger than the Mississippi of today that drained a giant glacial lake far to the north, that once covered parts of what are today, Minnesota, North Dakota, Ontario and Manitoba.

Post contact language names the much reduced but significant Mississippi River as - Xe-tera-nina, "Great Water" or Xe-tera-ni-sa-nak, "Great River."

What are we to make of this "Voice?" Are we to shrug it off as some tormented soul? Can we make a connection with it and the archaic mounds near the Wisconsin Heights battle site?

Perhaps the President or Board of Directors of the Old Lead Region Historical Society should appoint a detail of men and women to investigate "The Voice of Wisconsin Heights." Men tend to experience premonitions more frequently and women are known to exhibit excellent intuition, therefore providing effective analysis.

Do not invite anyone from the Wisconsin State Historical Society, though.

Larry Koschkee

[Robert Braun]

Larry-- nice synopsis. While I concede they dynamic nature of language and its ability to change over time, I am still skeptical about the contextual relationship of pre and post Ho-Chunk language thing.

I am guessing, but pre-contact language would have to have existed for more than 100 years before the 1832 battle. This would mean that word or word usage would have to have existed for more than five generations to 1832, and another... say 7 1/2 generations for Mr. Boyer to incorporate the quotes he found into his work.

Now we know from our English language experience that English words, dialect, etc. from say 1732 would be discernable to the modern ear some 13 1/2 generations later, but clearly more shall we say archaic in both vocabularly and syntax. If this is an example of what we're talking about, then I'm on board with the discussion!

Without further digression, I will draw two distinct points...

1. The "voice" heard during the pre-dawn hours of July 23, 1832 was at least in part discernable by two militia eyewitnesses. Therefore, one might suppose that the speech was a more recent form of Winnebago language and therefore, probably not our spectral articulator;

2. I'm fuzzy on the whole "pre" vs. "post" contact thing. As an example (and not to be impertinent in any way) if the Ho-Chunk name for the Mississippi changed from one form to another... what does "contact" have to do with that change, particularly?

=========

Should the OLRHS president convene a special commission to look into the battlefield voice issue, I am at his disposal.

I will say that as an eyewitness to a number of shall we say "unusual" battlefield phenomena, I have yet to see, hear, or experience anything odd at WH. This statement, of course, does not disprove that others MAY have experienced something at WH.

I don't especially mind if a WHS person is present... so long as we don't digress into another discussion on "Indian marker trees."

Wait! I think I have one of those in my backyard! Uhh oooohh!

[Larry Koschkee]

Bob,

Thank you for focusing the discussion of pre and post contact language. I was fearful that I was not coming through clear... Yes, pre-contact speech, archaic in both vocabulary and syntex is what I am talking about.

Pre-contact is a arbitrary time designation for both parent speech and subsequent word additions, erasures or modifications.

In addition, I agree that the voice in the wilderness at the Wisconsin Heights battlefield directed at the military was not the spectral orator that Mr. Jones has commented on.

I first became aware of this "Ghost of Wisconsin Heights" back in 1988 while having lunch with some clients at a local Prairie du Sac pub and eatery. I was all ears because of my interest in Wisconsin's tumuli. Inquiries into the story at the Wisconsin State Historical Society was futile. They treated the story as a joke and me a jester.

When Boyer published the story in his book in 1996 I was elated because it suggested a link between the mounds at Wisconsin Heights and the Winnebago (Ho-Chunk) Nation and furthermore a distinct possibility that the mound builders were ancient ancestors of the Nation. (I apologize to the purest reader for this un-scientific, anectdodal information) To this date, state archaeologist, Robert Birmingham, maintains there is no link.

Indian marker trees... eh? If your are not satisified the one in your backyard is the real McCoy, do not despair I can show you one near the pine relics in Grant County.

Larry Koschkee

[Larry Koschkee]

While I have not connected the dots between White Crow and the voice in the wilderness, I would like to respond to Mr. Jones post about White Crow.

White Crow, controversial to say the least, certainly could be a whole story in itself in a seperate topic on this board. ( Is White Crow an oxymoron?)

As Mr. Jones states, there are several village sites attributed to White Crow. I lean towards the site researched by the Ho-Chunk Historic Preservation Department in Black River Falls, WI. That is; Dane County... "west or northwest shore of Lake Mendota on high point known as Foxes Bluff."

In addition, Mr. Jones stated: White Crow appears to figure strongly in both the return of the Hall girls and in the Battle of WH. I agree on both instances but disagree that his intentions were honorable and his actions were for the right reasons, which would be the topic of a seperate thread.

Thank you Mr. Jones for your most interesting post.

Larry Koschkee